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[I. INVOCATION, PLEDGE & ROLL CALL]
GOOD MORNING.WELCOME TO THE CITY COUNCIL SPECIAL MEETING FOR THE CITY OF PORT ARTHUR, TEXAS CITY SECRETARY, MAY WE PLEASE HAVE A ROLL CALL.
THE CITY COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PORT ARTHUR WILL CONDUCT A SPECIAL MEETING SCHEDULED FOR TODAY, NOVEMBER 30TH, 2023, BEGINNING AT 9:24 PM BY TELEPHONIC AND VIDEO CONFERENCE.
IN ADDITION TO ALLOWING IN-PERSON ATTENDANCE, A QUORUM OF THE CITY COUNCIL WILL BE PHYSICALLY PRESENT IN THE CITY COUNCIL CHAMBER.
4 4 4 FOURTH STREET, PORT ARTHUR, TEXAS.
THE PUBLIC MAY PARTICIPATE IN THE MEETING IN PERSON OR BY DIALING ONE OF THE FOLLOWING TOLL-FREE NUMBERS.
AND ENTERING THE MEETING ID 8 1 4 3 9 5 9 8 6 8 5.
AND USING PASSCODE 6 6 2 3 5 5.
IT'S ALSO AVAILABLE TOLL FREE 8 7 7 8 5 3 5 2 4 7 OR 8 8 8 7 8 8 0 0 9 9.
IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE AMERICANS WITH DISABILITIES ACT, THE CITY OF PORT ARTHUR WILL PROVIDE FOR REASONABLE ACCOMMODATIONS FOR PERSONS ATTENDING CITY COUNCIL MEETINGS TO BETTER SERVE YOU.
REQUESTS SHOULD BE RECEIVED 24 HOURS PRIOR TO THE MEETING.
PLEASE CONTACT THE CITY SECRETARY'S OFFICE AT 4 0 9 9 8 3 8 1 1 5.
WE'VE ALREADY HAD THE ROLL CALL AND TODAY'S WORKSHOP IS FOR THIS, THE CITY COUNCIL WILL CONVENE A TRAINING SESSION FOR LEGAL GUIDANCE AND DISCUSSION REGARDING THE FOLLOWING TOPICS.
ONE, AN OVERVIEW OF HOW CITIES RUN.
TWO, THE ROLE OF THE CITY COUNCIL IN BEST PRACTICES FOR SERVING ON GOVERNING BODIES.
ETHICS FOUR, THE LAW AS APPLIED TO GOVERNMENT SOCIAL MEDIA.
THE TEXAS OPENED MEETINGS ACT AND SIX TEXAS PUBLIC INFORMATION ACT.
OUR TRAINING WILL BE CONDUCTED BY MR. ALLEN BO QUEST.
DID I GET IT RIGHT? YEAH, ME PRO.
CAN WE DO THE PLEDGE? AND I APOLOGIZE, LET ME GIVE MY HONOR, BUT STAND FOR THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE AND ALSO, YES.
UM, MR. KEN LAW, CAN YOU PLEASE GIVE THE OPENING PRAYER? YES.
WHERE YOU STANDING BY WITH ME.
OH, HEAVENLY FATHER, THANK YOU FOR THIS MAGNIFICENT DAY.
THANK YOU FOR BLESSING EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US FOR THIS TRAINING.
THE CITIZEN OF GREAT CITY, OF PORT ARTHUR, AS WELL AS COUNCIL STAFF.
I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY, JUSTICE AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.
BUT NOW, MR. ALLEN, THANK YOU.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MAYOR PRO.
TIM HAMILTON AND MEMBERS OF THE COUNCIL.
I APPRECIATE CITY MANAGER BURTON AND CITY ATTORNEY TINO INVITING ME TO COME HERE TODAY AND DO SOME TRAINING FOR YOU.
UH, MY NAME IS ALAN BOJORQUEZ.
I HAVE A LAW FIRM IN AUSTIN, TEXAS THAT REPRESENTS CITIES STATEWIDE.
I MYSELF AM CITY ATTORNEY FOR A FEW SMALL CITIES AND THEN HAVE HELPED, UH, THE CITY, UH, OUT WITH SOME SPECIAL PROJECTS OVER THE YEARS.
TODAY I'VE BEEN ASKED TO COME HERE NOT ON A PARTICULAR PROJECT ORDINANCE OR CONTRACT, BUT INSTEAD TO PROVIDE SOME TRAINING.
AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT I'VE BEEN DOING FOR 27 YEARS SINCE I STARTED WITH THE TEXAS MUNICIPAL LEAGUE AS A YOUNG ATTORNEY LONG AGO.
AND WHY I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT IS BECAUSE INFORMED CITY OFFICIALS TEND TO MAKE BETTER DECISIONS.
THEY TEND TO ACHIEVE THEIR GOALS SUCCESSFULLY AND AVOID RISK AND VULNERABILITY FOR THEMSELVES AND FOR THEIR TAXPAYERS.
SO I HAVE FIVE DIFFERENT PRESENTATIONS THAT THE CITY ATTORNEY HAS ASKED ME TO PRESENT TODAY.
UH, WELL, YOU CAN VIEW THEM AS INFORMATION I'M DOWNLOADING TO YOU.
YOU CAN ALSO VIEW IT AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO ASK QUESTIONS AND HAVE A CONVERSATION.
THIS IS, THIS IS YOUR MEETING.
I'M, I'M JUST YOUR, YOUR GUIDE AND YOUR TRAINER HERE TODAY.
THE FIRST THING THAT WE TEED UP IS THE ONE THAT EVERYONE HAS TO DEAL WITH, WHICH IS GOING TO BE OPEN GOVERNMENT, OPEN MEETINGS, AND OPEN RECORDS.
IT AFFECTS EVERYTHING YOU DO AS AN ELECTED OFFICIAL AND IT ALSO AFFECTS YOUR STAFF.
AND SO THIS TRAINING HAS BEEN APPROVED BY THE OFFICE OF THE ATTORNEY
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GENERAL AS SATISFYING THE REQUIRED TRAINING.EVERY TIME SOMEONE GETS REELECTED, THEY HAVE TO GO THROUGH A VERSION OF THIS.
AND SO A LOT OF THIS IS DICTATED BY THE LAW, BUT IT'S ALSO INFLUENCED BY MY EXPERIENCE REPRESENTING CITIES LIKE PORT ARTHUR AND WHAT WE'VE SEEN PEOPLE DEAL WITH THE MOST.
SO, UH, WE'LL START WITH OPEN MEETINGS
[II.5. The Texas Open Meetings Act; And]
FIRST, WE HAVE A MEETING HERE AS PROPERLY POSTED, AS PROPERLY CONVENED.AND THEN WE'LL TALK ABOUT OPEN RECORDS IN THE SECOND PART, NO MATTER HOW EDUCATIONAL I TRY TO BE, NO MATTER HOW ENTERTAINING I TRY TO BE, MAYBE YOU LIKE SOME OF MY STORIES.
I KNOW THAT WHEN YOU LEAVE AT AROUND TWO O'CLOCK THIS AFTERNOON, YOU'LL FORGET 95% OF WHAT I SAID.
THAT'S THE FACTS OF EDUCATION AND ADULT TRAINING.
WELL, YOU'VE GOT HANDOUTS WHICH MAY PROMPT YOUR MEMORY WHEN YOU'RE CONFRONTED WITH THIS DOWN THE ROAD.
UH, BUT THERE'S SIX THINGS I'M GOING TO BURN INTO YOUR BRAIN TO THE POINT OF BEING DOWNRIGHT ANNOYING.
BUT IF YOU'RE A MEMBER OF THESE SIX THINGS YOU'RE GONNA DO, ALL RIGHT.
THE FIRST THING YOU GOTTA REMEMBER IS YOU SHOULD ASSUME ALL DATA YOU COME INTO CONTACT WITH AS PART OF YOUR DUTIES WITH THE CITY OF PORT ARTHUR IS PUBLIC.
THAT MEANS WE GOTTA HOLD ONTO IT AND WE HAVE TO PROVIDE IT TO PEOPLE WHEN THEY ASK FOR IT.
OFTEN INCLUDING PEOPLE WHO HATE US.
THEY WANT TO DERAIL YOUR CAREER AND TAKE THE TAXPAYER'S MONEY.
MOST DATA WE CREATE AND TOUCH FALLS INTO THAT BUCKET OF DATA.
AND WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT INFORMATION THAT WAY, IT, IT CAN CHANGE THE WAY YOU INTERACT WITH DATA.
THE NEXT ONE, THINK BEFORE YOU CREATE, THINK BEFORE YOU CREATE A LESSON.
I LEARNED FROM THE TEXAS SUPREME COURT.
IT WAS AN OPEN RECORDS LAWSUIT ON BEHALF OF THE CITY OF GEORGETOWN.
AND I IMMEDIATELY RETIRED FROM SUPREME COURT PRACTICE UNDEFEATED.
BUT WHAT YOU LEARN IS THERE ARE LAWYERS OUT THERE THAT'LL DO ANYTHING THEY CAN TO GET YOUR DATA AND USE IT AGAINST YOU.
AND SOMETIMES THEY THINK LAWYERS SHOULD NOT PUT THINGS IN WRITING.
THERE HAVE BEEN ETHICS QUESTIONS OF LAWYERS.
WHY DID YOU SEND IT BY MAIL? SHOULD YOU HAVE FAXED IT? SHOULD YOU HAVE EMAILED IT? WAS THAT UNETHICAL TOOK TOO MUCH RISK WITH EMAIL FALLING INTO THE WRONG HANDS? MAYBE YOU SHOULD HAVE PICKED UP THE PHONE AND CALLED YOUR CLIENT.
MAYBE YOU SHOULD HAVE MET WITH YOUR CLIENT IN PERSON FOR THAT CONVERSATION.
'CAUSE BY PUTTING IT IN A MEMO, YOU MADE IT EASY FOR SOMEONE TO COPY THE MEMO AND GIVE IT TO PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT ENTITLED TO IT.
AND I DO THAT MULTIPLE TIMES A DAY.
WHAT'S THE EASIEST WAY TO CONVEY INFORMATION TO TEXT SOMEBODY? OH GOLLY, GEE WHIZZ.
THAT'S MIGHT BE THE WORST FORM OF HUMAN COMMUNICATION EVER.
I SHOULD SEND AN EMAIL SO I CAN SPELL YOU.
NO, MAYBE I NEED TO MAKE A PHONE CALL.
NO, MAYBE I DON'T NEED TO PUT THIS IN WRITING OR TALK TO ANYBODY AT ALL.
I'LL JUST SHUT UP AND GO HOME.
WIRE YOURSELF TO GO THROUGH THAT ANALYSIS IN A SPLIT SECOND BECAUSE THE DATA YOU'RE CREATING MIGHT BE A LEAD WEIGHT AROUND YOUR NECK AND MAY DRAG THE WHOLE CITY OF PORT ARTHUR DOWN YEARS AFTER YOU'VE LEFT OFFICE.
SO THINK BEFORE YOU CREATE DATA.
PRIVATE DEVICES CAN HAVE PUBLIC INFORMATION.
THE LAW IN TEXAS NO LONGER CARES WHO BOUGHT YOUR PHONE.
WHO PAYS FOR THE INTERNET SERVICE? DOES YOUR SECRETARY HAVE ACCESS TO IT? THE LAW NO LONGER CARESS IF IT'S GOT PUBLIC DATA REGARDING PUBLIC BUSINESS.
YOU HAVE TO COMPLY WITH THE OPEN RECORDS ACT.
AND SO THE OLD DAYS OF SAYING, THIS IS MY LAPTOP ON MY HOME AT AND T SERVICE, THOSE DAYS ARE OVER.
AND THAT CHANGES THE WAY WE SHARE INFORMATION WITH EACH OTHER.
BEWARE OF TEXTS AND EMAILS AND SOCIAL MEDIA.
WE HAVE A WHOLE SEPARATE SESSION LATER ON TODAY ABOUT SOCIAL MEDIA.
BUT I LUMP ALL THOSE THINGS IN TOGETHER.
THE NUMBER ONE VOLUME OF DATA WE'RE DEALING WITH IS ELECTRONIC DATA.
IT'S OTHER DATA THAT'S HARD TO EVEN KNOW IT EXISTS.
AND WHO'S GOT IT AND WHO ARE THEY SENDING IT TO? AND WE LOVE THE CONVENIENCE.
IT ALLOWS YOU TO BE IN TOUCH WITH YOUR CONSTITUENTS.
IT ALLOWS ME TO BE IN TOUCH WITH MY CLIENTS.
IT'S DANGEROUS AND IT'S GLORIOUS.
SO WE BALANCE THOSE TWO THINGS.
ASSUME WHENEVER YOUR GROUP, THE CITY COUNCIL IS TOGETHER AND THERE'S A QUORUM.
AND IF THAT'S A MEETING, THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT APPLIES.
NOW, MAYBE THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS, MAYBE THERE ARE EXEMPTIONS AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT THOSE.
BUT IF YOU JUST HAVE THAT GUT INSTINCT, 1, 2, 3, 4.
OKAY, WE'VE GOT A MEETING HERE.
DO I NEED TO STEP OUT? OR YOU'RE ON NEXTDOOR.COM OR YOU'RE ON FACEBOOK OR YOU'RE ON A PHONE CALL, YOU'RE ON A WEB MEETING ON ZOOM AND YOU COUNT 1, 2, 3.
BELLS AND WHISTLES ARE GOING OFF IN YOUR HEAD NOW.
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TEXT CALL TO YOUR CITY ATTORNEY WILL PUT YOUR, YOUR MIND AT EASE.BUT IF YOU CAN PROGRAM YOURSELF TO BEING CAUTIOUS ABOUT THAT, THEN YOU'RE GONNA STAY OUTTA TROUBLE.
AND THEN THE LAST POINT I HOPE YOU REMEMBER IS BE WARY OF WALKING QUORUMS. ALL THIS TECHNOLOGY I MENTIONED MAKES IT VERY EASY FOR YOU TO COMMIT A CRIMINAL VIOLATION OF THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT.
UH, THE LAW WAS CHANGED IN 2019.
IT GOT A LITTLE BETTER BECAUSE THE OLD LAW WAS STRUCK DOWN.
WE HAVE A NEW WALKING QUORUM LAW.
IT'S A LITTLE BIT EASIER TO UNDERSTAND.
UH, I THINK IT MAY STILL BE UNCONSTITUTIONAL, BUT I DON'T THINK ANY JUDGE IS GOING TO AGREE WITH ME AT THIS POINT.
SO LET'S JUST TRY TO COMPLY WITH THAT.
AND SO IF YOU'RE CAREFUL ABOUT WALKING QUORUMS, UH, THAT'S ANOTHER WAY TO KEEP NOT JUST OUT OF JAIL.
I DON'T REALLY SEE THAT HAPPENING VERY OFTEN.
BUT YOU SEE THOSE ACCUSATIONS ONLINE, ON SOCIAL MEDIA IN THE NEWSPAPER, ACCUSING CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS, COUNTY COMMISSIONERS OF WALKING QUORUMS. AND UH, I'VE DEALT WITH TWO DISTRICT ATTORNEYS JUST WITHIN THE LAST TWO YEARS PROSECUTING IN BOTH THOSE CASES, COUNTY COMMISSIONERS FOR VIOLATING THE WALKING QUORUM RULE.
SO THERE IS THE CHANCE OF PROSECUTION OUT THERE AND WE WANT Y'ALL TO BE ABLE TO AVOID THAT.
SO WHEN YOU FORGET EVERYTHING ELSE THAT I'VE TAUGHT YOU TODAY, HOLD ON TO THESE SIX THINGS AND YOU'LL BE GOLDEN.
WHY ARE WE DOING THIS? WHY DID VAL ASK ME TO COME HERE? WELL, NUMBER ONE, IF YOU'RE NEWLY ELECTED WITHIN 90 DAYS OF TAKING THE OATH, NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU'VE BEEN ELECTED, YOU GOTTA GO THROUGH THE TRAINING.
AND SO YAY, YOU'RE HERE, YOU'RE DOING IT.
OH, BY THE WAY, IT'S JUST A GOOD IDEA.
THIS IS AT THE CORE OF HOW COUNCIL'S WORK.
EVEN BEFORE THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT WAS ADOPTED IN THE 1970S, THE LAW IN TEXAS SAID, CITIES ACT THROUGH THEIR CITY COUNCILS AND CITY COUNCILS ACT AT MEETINGS.
SO MEETINGS ARE YOUR CHANCE TO GET TOGETHER AND MAKE THE BIG DECISIONS.
NOW WE HAVE A DIFFERENT SET OF RULES THAT APPLY TO WHEN YOU GATHER HOW YOU GATHER AND HOW YOU LET PEOPLE KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING.
AND WE KEEP TRACK OF WHAT YOU DID.
MAYBE YOU'LL ENJOY SOME OF THIS STUFF.
MAYBE IT'S JUST PAIN, PAIN, PAIN.
AND YOU'RE SUFFERING THROUGH THE PAIN.
TODAY, I HOPE SOME OF THESE STORIES OR LITTLE BITS ABOUT THE LAW YOU ACTUALLY FIND INTERESTING, IF YOU WANT TO DO THIS AND SERVE YOUR COMMUNITY THIS WAY, I WOULD HOPE YOU'RE INTERESTED IN THE LAW THAT GOVERNS WHAT YOU DO.
AND THEN JUST FRANKLY, IT'S FUNDAMENTAL TO DEMOCRACY.
WHAT THE COURTS AND THE LEGISLATURE REALIZED LONG AGO IS THAT FOR PEOPLE TO PARTICIPATE IN THEIR GOVERNMENT, IT'S NOT ENOUGH FOR THEM TO BE TOLD WHAT THE GOVERNMENT DID.
THEY NEED TO SEE THE DECISION MAKING PROCESS.
THEY NEED TO SEE THE BACK AND FORTH HORSE TRADING THAT GOES ON WHEN YOU'RE MAKING LAWS, WHICH IS WHAT CITY COUNCILS DO.
THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT GIVES THEM THAT ACCESS TO YOU.
AND SO IF YOU WANNA BE PART OF DEMOCRACY, THEN YOU GOTTA EMBRACE OPEN MEETINGS.
THAT'S WHAT DEMOCRACY IS ALL ABOUT.
SO GETTING TO THE SUBSTANCE, WHAT'S A MEETING? YOU THINK YOU KNOW WHAT A MEETING IS, BUT SURELY YOU KNOW ENOUGH TO WHERE IF YOU'RE CURIOUS ABOUT A LAW, IS IT GONNA AFFECT WHAT YOU DO? THE FIRST THING YOU LOOK AT AND SAY, WELL, DOES IT APPLY TO ME? DOES IT APPLY TO WHAT I'M DOING? THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT APPLIES TO MEETINGS.
WHAT'S A MEETING? A MEETING IS A DELIBERATION.
TALKING VOTING AMONG MEMBERS OF A GOVERNING BODY.
CITY COUNCIL'S CLEARLY A GOVERNING BODY WHERE THERE'S A QUORUM.
AND YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT PUBLIC BUSINESS THAT YOU HAVE JURISDICTION OVER.
SO IF ANY OF THOSE POINTS YOU SEE ON THE SCREEN ARE MISSING, YOU DON'T HAVE A MEETING.
SO MY FAVORITE EXAMPLE, HAVING BEEN BORN IN DALLAS, TEXAS, IS THE DALLAS COWBOYS.
MY DAD, GOD BLESS HIM, HE'S PASSED ON THAT MAN NEVER MISSED A SINGLE GAME, EVEN WHEN IT WAS ONLY ON RADIO.
YOU CAN GET TOGETHER AS A QUORUM WHENEVER YOU WANT TO AND TALK DAY AND NIGHT ABOUT THE DALLAS COWBOYS.
AND FORGET ABOUT THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT.
WHY? 'CAUSE UNLESS SOMETHING'S CHANGED, Y'ALL HAVE NO JURISDICTION OVER THE DALLAS COWBOYS ZERO.
THAT IS NOT AN ISSUE OF PUBLIC BUSINESS.
YOU DON'T FUND THEM, YOU DON'T HOUSE THEM, YOU DON'T DIRECT THEM.
I'VE BEEN YELLED AT BEFORE AT TML MEETINGS.
YOU'RE SAYING, I CAN'T BE FRIENDS WITH MY CO-COUNSEL.
JUST DON'T TALK ABOUT CITY BUSINESS.
IF THERE'S A QUORUM AROUND, TALK ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE.
Y'ALL CAN ALL GET TOGETHER AND GO TO THE MOVIES THIS WEEKEND.
WHY NOT? THERE'S NO TALKING IN MOVIES.
SO IF THERE'S NO DELIBERATION, THERE'S NO OPEN MEETINGS ACT.
THE ONLY CITY COUNCIL THAT CAN'T GET GET TOGETHER AND TALK ABOUT THE DALLAS COWBOYS IS ARLINGTON.
ARLINGTON, WHERE THE STADIUM IS, WHERE THEY'RE HOUSED, WHERE THEY USE THE POWER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND
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IMMINENT DOMAIN TO MAKE JERRY'S HOUSE POSSIBLE.I ONCE WAS DOING REDISTRICTING FOR THE CITY OF ARLINGTON, AND I THOUGHT THAT WAS A PRETTY BIG DEAL.
I'M UP HERE AT THE PODIUM TALKING TO THE CITY OF ARLINGTON ABOUT REDISTRICTING, WHERE THEY'RE GONNA BE ELECTED, WHERE THEIR VOTERS ARE GOING TO BE.
AND THEY COULDN'T WAIT FOR ME TO SIT DOWN AND BE QUIET.
WHY? 'CAUSE THE ITEM AFTER ME WAS A TIER ONE TERRORIST THREAT.
THE SUPER BOWL WAS COMING TO ARLINGTON AND THEREFORE THE CITY OF ARLINGTON WAS ALL ABOUT SECURITY.
CAMERAS GETTING RID OF TRASH CANS, MAILBOXES, WELDING, CLOSED UTILITY HOLE COVERS BECAUSE THAT WAS THEIR BUSINESS.
IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT CITY BUSINESS AND THERE'S A QUORUM, YOU HAVE AN ISSUE.
EVEN IF YOU SHOW UP TO, I DON'T KNOW, A CHAMBER OF COMMERCE LUNCHEON AND YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO ELSE IS GONNA BE IN THE ROOM.
YOU START COUNTING, THERE'S A QUORUM IN THE ROOM AND ONE OF YOU GETS UP DURING THE CHAMBER LUNCH AND STARTS TALKING ABOUT CITY BUSINESS.
YOU HAVE A PROBLEM UNDER THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT.
PLEASE, VAL, THIS IS A, UM, AND I I JUST WANTED TO, THIS IS THE KIND OF AREA WHERE PEOPLE GET CONFUSED.
WHAT ABOUT WHEN YOU POST A A A NOTICE OF POSSIBLE QUORUM? THAT'S A BEAUTIFUL THING TO DO.
OKAY? THE OPENING, YOU CAN'T ALWAYS DO THAT FOR SOCIAL.
THE, THE OPENS ACT DOESN'T MENTION THAT AT ALL.
BUT MANY OF US, LIKE YOUR CITY ATTORNEY, HAVE STARTED A PRACTICE WITH YOUR CITY SECRETARY OF GIVING THE PUBLIC NOTICE.
HEY, WHAT'S COMING UP AT THIS ADDRESS AT THIS DATE AND TIME? IS A CHAMBER LUNCH OR A NEIGHBORHOOD ASSOCIATION OR LITTLE LEAGUE SPORTS? IT IS NOT A CITY COUNCIL MEETING.
THERE WON'T BE VOTING, THERE WON'T BE TALKING, THERE WON'T BE DECISIONS.
HOWEVER, A QUORUM OF THE CITY COUNCIL MIGHT SHOW UP AND WE JUST WANNA LET YOU KNOW.
NOW AGAIN, THE LAW DOESN'T TALK ABOUT THAT AT ALL.
I CAN'T POINT TO ONE SINGLE COURT CASE OR AG OPINION, BUT OUR THINKING IS, AS LONG AS WE'RE BEING TRANSPARENT WITH THAT, WHAT DISTRICT ATTORNEY OR COUNTY ATTORNEY'S GONNA WANNA PROSECUTE YOU, WHEN YOU'RE TOLD THE PUBLIC WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO, YOU'RE NOT HIDING, YOU'RE NOT BEING SECRETIVE.
YOU'RE BEING OPEN AND HONEST ABOUT IT.
AND I THINK THAT'S A VERY SMART PREVENTATIVE MEASURE TO DO.
IF, UH, THE MEDIAN STARTS, YOU ESTABLISH A QUORUM, THE COURTROOM IS BROKEN, SOMEONE STEPS OUT, DOES THE MEDIAN STOP? WE JUST CAN'T, WE CAN CONTINUE TO DISCUSS.
CAN WE CONTINUE TO DISCUSS? BUT WE JUST CAN'T VOTE.
HAVE THAT CHANGED? I, I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT.
I I'M, I'M SUPPORTIVE OF WHAT YOU SAID, BUT THE LAW DOESN'T SAY, AGAIN, I CAN'T POINT TO A SINGLE AG OPINION OR COURT CASE ON THE TOPIC.
I THINK IF YOU LOSE A QUORUM, YOUR MEETING IS OVER, OR AT LEAST IT'S ON PAUSE.
NOW IS THIS A DIFFERENT GATHERING WHERE YOU CAN STILL DISCUSS? I THINK SO.
AND WHERE I'VE SEEN THAT HAPPEN THE MOST IS PEOPLE BOTHER TO ARRANGE TO SHOW UP TO YOUR MEETING.
THEY WANT TO BE A PART OF A PUBLIC HEARING.
ARE YOU JUST GONNA SEND THOSE FOLKS HOME? WELL, YOU CAN OR YOU CAN SAY, WELL, I'M SORRY OUR MEETING IS OVER, BUT SINCE YOU'RE HERE, WE'LL GO AHEAD AND LISTEN TO YOU AND WE'LL MAKE A NOTE OF IT.
BUT WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE ANY ACTION ON THAT ITEM.
WE'LL RESCHEDULE IT FOR THE FUTURE.
I THINK MR. DOUCETTE HAS A QUESTION.
I THINK THAT'S, THAT'LL BE IN LINE WITH, UH, DISCUSSION.
IF WE HAVE A SCHEDULED MEETING AND WE ARE, AND WE ALL, WELL, WE COME, BUT WE DON'T HAVE A QUORUM.
WE STILL HAVE TO OPEN A MEETING AND THEN CLOSE IT BECAUSE OF LACK OF QUORUM.
SO I THINK THAT'S BASICALLY WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE.
YOU CAN DISCUSS AND TALK, BUT YOU CAN'T TAKE ANY ACTIONS, RIGHT? I I I THINK I THINK SO.
BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE A QUORUM.
SO WHAT YOU'RE DESCRIBING IS, IS GOING THROUGH THE FORMALITIES OF, OF ROLL CALL AND THAT SORT OF THING.
I THINK THAT'S A GOOD PRACTICE.
UH, TECHNICALLY THIS MEETING CAN OCCUR AND TRIGGER THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT EVEN IF THERE'S NO VOTING, EVEN IF ALL YOU'RE DOING IS TALKING.
AND ONE OF THE MOST BIZARRE EXAMPLES IS, IS THE BEAR BEARER, B-B-E-X-A-R, BEAR, MEDINA, ATASCOSA UNDERGROUND WATER DISTRICT, WHERE ON A SATURDAY, AN UNDERGROUND WATER DISTRICT, UM, A GROUP OF FARMERS PUT TOGETHER A GATHERING AT A BARN.
AND VARIOUS BOARD MEMBERS FROM THE UNDERGROUND WATER DISTRICT WERE INVITED TO ATTEND.
THE DISTRICT WASN'T INVITED TO ATTEND.
INDIVIDUALS WERE ALLOWED TO ATTEND.
THEY SHOWED UP, DIDN'T SIT TOGETHER.
ONE STOOD UP AND ASKED A QUESTION.
LATER ANOTHER ONE STOOD UP AND ANSWERED A QUESTION COMPLETELY NOT COORDINATED BY THE DISTRICT, BUT THERE WAS A QUORUM OF THEM AT THAT EVENT.
ONE OF THEM ASKED A QUESTION, ONE OF THEM ANSWERED TO THE QUESTION, NO VOTING.
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THE COURT FOUND THEY VIOLATED THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT, PERMANENT INJUNCTION, PAID COURT COSTS, THE WHOLE THING.SO EVEN IF THERE'S NO VOTE, YOU CAN VIOLATE THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT BY TALKING.
BUT IN THE SCENARIO, WHEN YOU LOSE A QUORUM, AS A PRACTICAL MATTER, I HAVE GROWN RELUCTANT AT JUST THROWING PEOPLE OUTTA THE ROOM AND GOING HOME, LET PEOPLE TALK.
JUST DON'T MAKE ANY DECISIONS.
POST IT FOR A FUTURE AGENDA, COME BACK AND ADDRESS IT AGAIN.
I THINK THAT'S JUST A PRAGMATIC APPROACH, BUT THERE'S NO LAW TO BACK ME UP.
SO THERE'S ALWAYS THAT ELEMENT OF RISK THERE.
IF YOU'RE DOING IT IN RELIANCE ON YOUR CITY ATTORNEY, THE RISK IS EVEN SMALLER.
SO TECHNICALLY, IF YOU GOT A QUORUM TO BREAK THE QUORUM, IT TURNS INTO A WORKSHOP.
AM I CORRECT OR OVERSTATING THIS OR WHAT? I I I WOULDN'T SAY IT THAT WAY BECAUSE THE WORDS WORKSHOP AND WORK SESSION DON'T APPEAR IN THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT AT ALL.
THOSE ARE JUST WORDS FOR ANOTHER KIND OF MEETING.
I THINK OUR MAYOR PRO TEM HAS SOMETHING.
I WANTED TO, UM, BEFORE I ASK THIS QUESTION, I WANTED SOME CLARITY.
COUNCIL MEMBER ETT, WHEN YOU MENTIONED, UM, OPENING AND CLOSING THE MEETING, LIKE AN EXAMPLE OF TODAY.
SO WE DIDN'T HAVE THE QUORUM, BUT COULD WE HAVE OPENED THE MEETING AND CLOSED THE MEETING? RIGHT.
NO, I THINK IT GOES BACK ALAN.
AND THE REASON I SAY THAT, AND WE'VE DONE THAT IN THE PAST, IS FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT THE MEETING WAS POSTED MM-HMM.
SO IF SOMEBODY SHOWED UP, THEN WE KNOW WE DON'T HAVE A QUORUM, THEN WE WOULD LET THE PEOPLE KNOW THAT WE DON'T HAVE A QUAR AND THE MEETING IS CANCELED RATHER THAN JUST, OH, WE ARE NOT GONNA GO.
BUT YOU HAVE YOUR PUBLIC THAT THAT APPEAR.
THAT IS WHY IF YOU HAVE SOMEONE THERE, THEY SHOULD AT LEAST OPEN A MEETING AND THEN CLOSE IT FOR LACK OF A QUORUM TO MAKE SURE THAT THE PEOPLE WHO WOULD TUNE IN, OF THE PEOPLE WHO CAME UNDERSTAND WHY YOU'RE NOT CONDUCTING A MEETING.
I THINK THAT'S A GOOD PRACTICE.
AND I SAY PRACTICE 'CAUSE THE LAW DOESN'T SAY AND DOESN'T CARE.
YOU COULD ALL JUST SHOW UP, WAIT 15 MINUTES AND GO HOME AND THE CUSTODIAN COMES IN TO CLEAN UP AND SAYS, HEY Y'ALL, THERE'S NO MEETING.
I MEAN THAT WOULD BE PERFECTLY FINE UNDER THE LAW.
BUT WHAT YOU'RE DESCRIBING IS A GOOD IDEA.
AND I THINK THAT'S A COMMON PRACTICE.
SO IT'S, IF WE DON'T HAVE THE QUORUM, IT'S TECHNICALLY NOT A MEETING.
BUT WE FOLLOW THE FORMALITIES.
AND THAT THAT'S A MATTER OF LOCAL PRACTICE.
UH, UH, CITY ATTORNEY REAL QUICK.
UH, JUST LISTENING TO YOU EARLIER YOU STATED THAT UH, SOMETIMES WE MAY ALL GET INVITES TO GO TO DIFFERENT FUNCTIONS OR MEETINGS AND WE DON'T KNOW EACH ONE OF US GONNA BE THERE.
BUT AS LONG AS WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT CITY BUSINESS, AS YOU STATED EARLIER, WE ARE GOOD.
AND THAT'S WHAT I WANNA GET CLARITY, BECAUSE A LOT OF TIMES WE'RE INVITED TO GO AND CELEBRATE SPEAK, YOU KNOW, BE OUT SPEAKING.
BUT AS LONG AS WE DON'T SPEAK ABOUT CITY BUSINESS, ARE YOU SAYING TODAY THAT WE ARE NOT VIOLATING ANYTHING, UH, WHEN IT COMES TO HAVING A QUORUM? CORRECT.
READ YEARS AGO ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS, A DALLAS-FORT WORTH AREA CITY WAS BEING INVESTIGATED FOR VIOLATING THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT FOR HAVING AN ILLEGAL MEETING, UH, AT THE MAYOR'S HOUSE.
AND THEN TWO WEEKS LATER THERE WAS A FOLLOW UP ARTICLE, WHICH I'M GLAD THERE'S SELDOM A FOLLOW UP ARTICLE TO THAT SORT OF THING.
AND IT'S THE DA SAID, I DID AN INVESTIGATION AND CONCLUDED THAT THE ONLY THING THAT OCCURRED ON THE MAYOR'S AT THE MAYOR'S HOUSE ON THAT SUNDAY MORNING WAS THE MASS CONSUMPTION OF ORANGE JUICE AND WAFFLES
AND I WAS SURPRISED 'CAUSE I'M MORE OF A PANCAKES AND COFFEE KIND OF GUY.
BUT THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE THAT THEY TALKED ABOUT CITY BUSINESS WHO TURNED 'EM INTO THE DA THE COUNCIL MEMBER WHO WAS NOT INVITED TO BRUNCH
AND SO, YOU KNOW, THAT THAT SORT, THAT SORT OF THING DOES HAPPEN.
IT'S THE DISCUSSING OF CITY BUSINESS OVER WHICH YOU HAVE JURISDICTION THAT IS ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL.
THE LAW UNDERSTANDS Y'ALL LIVE IN THE SAME TOWN.
YOU PROBABLY GO TO A LOT OF THE SAME LIONS CLUBS AND ROTARY CLUBS AND KIWANIS CLUBS.
BUT IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT CITY BUSINESS, THERE SHOULDN'T BE A QUORUM THERE.
IF THERE IS, DON'T TALK ABOUT CITY BUSINESS OR SOMEONE SHOULD STEP OUT.
IF YOU CAN ANTICIPATE IT, THEN YOU DO WHAT YOUR CITY ATTORNEY SUGGESTED AND YOU POST A NOTICE OF POSSIBLE QUORUM JUST TO GIVE THE WORLD A HEADS UP.
SO WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT, NOW WE KNOW WHAT A MEETING IS.
IT APPLIES TO CITY COUNCILS, COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, SCHOOL BOARDS.
IT APPLIES TO YOUR PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION.
EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE NOT MENTIONED IN THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT, THE
[00:25:01]
STATUTE THAT ALLOWS YOU TO CREATE AND HAVE A PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SAYS THEY SHALL COMPLY WITH THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT, UH, QUORUM, UH, IS NECESSARY FOR THERE TO BE ANY ACTION.AND SO IF YEARS DOWN THE ROAD YOU'RE WONDERING, DID THE CITY ACTUALLY APPROVE SOMETHING? I DON'T KNOW.
THERE WAS A QUORUM THERE THAT DAY THAT ANSWERS THE QUESTIONS.
UH, YOU CAN HAVE SUBCOMMITTEES, BUT YOU NEED TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT CITY COUNCIL SUBCOMMITTEES BECAUSE OF THE WALKING QUORUM ISSUE.
UM, TALKING ABOUT IT IN A GROUP OF TWO OF YOU OR THREE OF YOU IS FINE UNTIL ONE OF YOU GOES AND TALKS TO ANOTHER COUNCIL MEMBER OUTSIDE OF A MEETING AND YOU ESTABLISH A QUORUM OUTSIDE OF A MEETING TALKING ABOUT MATTERS OF PUBLIC BUSINESS.
ALL OF A SUDDEN THERE'S THAT RISK THERE.
AND YOU DON'T ALWAYS KNOW WHO'S GOING TO SHOW UP AT THESE OTHER MEETINGS.
YOU DON'T ALWAYS KNOW WHO ELSE IS BEING BROUGHT INTO THE CONVERSATION.
YOU MAY THINK IT'S A ONE-ON-ONE BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUE ON THE COUNCIL NOT KNOWING THEY'RE OFF TALKING TO SOMEBODY ELSE WHO'S THEN OFF TALKING TO SOMEBODY ELSE.
AND THAT'S WHY THE TRAINING IS SO IMPORTANT.
'CAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO GET CAUGHT UP IN THAT.
IN THE ROOM YOU GOT SOMETHING LESS THAN A QUORUM PURPOSELESS BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANNA VIOLATE OPEN MEETINGS ACT SWAPPING OUT.
ONE OF YOU LEAVING OR SOMEBODY ELSE COME IN THAT'S CONSIDERED A WALK-IN QUORUM.
I THINK IT IT, IT WOULD BE, AND KEEP TALKING ABOUT WALKING QUORUM THERE.
IT'S, I'LL COME BACK TO THOSE OTHER ONES.
BUT THIS, THIS IS WHERE IN 2019 THAT THE HIGHEST CRIMINAL COURT IN THE STATE, THE TEXAS COURT OF CRIMINAL APPEALS STRUCK DOWN SECTION 1 43 OF THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT, WHICH WAS THE OLD WALKING QUORUM RULE.
AND I, I PLAYED A VERY SMALL ROLE IN THIS, UH, THE FORMER COUNTY JUDGE OF MONTGOMERY COUNTY NOT FAR FROM HERE.
AND A COUNTY COMMISSIONER AND A POLITICAL CONSULTANT WERE ALL INDICTED FOR VIOLATING THE WALKING QUORUM RULE.
THEY BROUGHT IN A SPECIAL JUDGE, SPECIAL PROSECUTOR, AND THE COUNTY JUDGE'S LEGAL TEAM HIRED ME TO BE AN EXPERT WITNESS FOR THE COUNTY JUDGE.
AND I TESTIFIED FOR SIX HOURS UNDER OATH.
AND ULTIMATELY THE JUDGE THROUGHOUT THE INDICTMENT SAYING THAT THAT PART OF THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL, THE COURT OF APPEALS OVERRULED THE TRIAL COURT AND THE TEXAS COURT OF CRIMINAL APPEALS AGREED WITH ME.
AND SO IT WAS STRUCK DOWN IN 2019 DURING THE LEGISLATIVE SESSION.
SO AT THAT POINT THEN SENATOR KIRK WATSON FILED A NEW BILL WITH A NEW SECTION 1 43 THAT GIVES US THIS.
AND THIS IS MY STRIPPED DOWN BASIC BEAR TO THE BONES EXPLANATION OF WHAT A WALKING QUORUM IS.
AND SO IF YOU KNOWINGLY HAVE ONE OR MORE COMMUNICATIONS IN A SERIES OF COMMUNICATIONS WITH LESS THAN A QUORUM KNOWING IT'S GONNA ADD UP TO A QUORUM AND YOU'RE DOING IT OUTSIDE OF A MEETING, YOU VIOLATED THE WALKING QUORUM RULE.
NOW AS A LAWYER, YOU'LL SEE THAT I CHOSE TO PUT THE WORD KNOWING IN THERE TWICE.
THAT'S A LOT OF KNOWLEDGE, WHICH MEANS I THINK IT'S KIND OF DIFFICULT TO PROVE.
DOESN'T MEAN YOU WON'T BE ACCUSED, DON'T MEAN YOU WON'T BE INDICTED.
DON'T MEAN YOU WON'T GO THROUGH PROSECUTION AND HAVE TO PAY FOR YOUR OWN LEGAL DEFENSE.
SO THE BEST THING TO DO IS JUST REALLY TRY TO AVOID THIS.
THE LEGISLATURE DOES NOT WANT YOU ENGAGING IN THIS BEHAVIOR.
A BIZARRE EXAMPLE, UM, BEFORE THIS CHANGE WENT INTO EFFECT WAS AT THE CITY OF EL PASO WHERE THE MAYOR AND A COUPLE COUNCIL MEMBERS WERE MEETING WITH THE CITIZENS GROUP ABOUT MASSIVE DOWNTOWN REJUVENATION, TEARING DOWN OF BUILDINGS, BUILDING NEW BUILDINGS, SOME VERY IMPORTANT THINGS THAT WERE AFFECTING THE NEIGHBORHOOD.
SO THE MAYOR AND A COUPLE COUNCIL MEMBERS MET IN ONE ROOM, THEN THE MAYOR AND ONE COUNCIL MEMBER LEFT THAT ROOM TO GO TO A DIFFERENT ROOM WITH A DIFFERENT COUNCIL MEMBER AND A DIFFERENT GROUP OF NEIGHBORS.
AND THEN THE MAYOR WENT TO ANOTHER FLOOR AND MET WITH A DIFFERENT SET OF NEIGHBORS AND ANOTHER COUNCIL MEMBER.
AND SO SWAPPING OUT THAT YOU'RE DESCRIBING TOOK PLACE, HOW DO I KNOW THIS? 'CAUSE THE MEDIA WAS THERE AND FILMED IT ALL AND IT'S STILL ONLINE.
YOU CAN GOOGLE IT TO THIS DAY AND FIND THESE STORIES.
UH, WHO'S THERE? TEXAS RANGERS OPEN UP
NOW IN THE END, THE INVESTIGATION WENT NOWHERE.
DON'T KNOW WHY TEXAS RANGERS DON'T REPORT TO ME, BUT IT'S THAT KIND OF SCENARIO THAT CAN GET PEOPLE IN TROUBLE.
AND SO YOU HAVE TO BE VERY MINDFUL OF YOURSELF, WHO YOU'RE COMMUNICATING WITH AND WHO'S COMMUNICATING WITH THE PEOPLE THAT YOU ARE COMMUNICATING WITH.
SO THIS IS OUR NEW WALKING QUORUM.
UM, THERE ARE SOME, UM, INDICTMENTS PENDING NOT FAR FROM HERE ON THIS NEW LAW.
SO LEMME GO BACK AND GET THE STUFF THAT I SKIPPED.
ALRIGHT, ASK ONE MORE QUESTION.
[00:30:01]
WHEN WE TALKED ABOUT DIFFERENT GROUPS THAT ARE EXCLUDED, SOME OF THESE SUBCOMMITTEES, BUT LIKE WHAT ABOUT PNZ THAT HAVE CERTAIN LEVELS OF AUTHORITY THEY DO HAVE TO COMPLY? YEAH, THE, THE, THE CONSTRUCTION BOARD, THE STANDARD ZONING ENABLING ACT, WHICH SAYS THAT TO HAVE ZONING A HOME RULE CITY LIKE PORT ARTHUR MUST HAVE A P AND Z.IT ALSO SAYS P AND Z MUST COMPLY WITH OPEN MEETINGS.
IF YOU'RE GONNA GIVE A VARIANCE TO A ZONING LAW, THAT'S GOTTA COME FROM THE BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT.
THEY MUST COMPLY WITH THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT.
SO THERE ARE DIFFERENT GROUPS.
IF IT'S PURELY ADVISORY, IF YOU HAVE A PARKS BOARD THAT JUST TELLS YOU WHAT KIND OF MAINTENANCE YOU SHOULD BE DOING AT THE BALL FIELDS AND YOU CAN TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT, THAT'S PURELY ADVISORY BY STATE LAW.
BUT A LOT OF CITIES ARE MAKING THEM COMPLY ANYWAY.
ARE THEY PURELY ADVISORY OR ARE THEY MAKING RULES? ARE THEY SUGGESTING CONTRACTS? ARE THEY MAKING RECOMMENDATIONS ON STAFF? ARE THEY MAKING PASSING RESOLUTIONS REGARDING GRANTS? UH, IT GETS GRAY.
SO I THINK THE TREND THESE DAYS IS TO MAKE ALL OF YOUR CITIZEN ADVISORY BOARDS COMPLY WITH OPEN MEETINGS JUST IN THE SAKE OF TRANSPARENCY AND TO AVOID PROBLEMS. 'CAUSE SOMETIMES GROUPS CHANGE OVER TIME.
THEY STARTED OFF BEING AN ADVISORY AND THEY MORPH.
UH, IF THE FUNCTION YOU'RE GOING TO IS PURELY SOCIAL, THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT DOES NOT APPLY.
SO I'VE BEEN AS FAR BACK AS WHEN I WAS A YOUNG INTERN FOR THE CITY OF LUBBOCK GOING TO A, A PLACE WHERE THE CHIEF OF POLICE IS RETIRING AND EVERYONE'S THERE RAISING A CUP TO A LONGTIME PUBLIC SERVANT.
PURELY SOCIAL, NO DISCUSSION OF CITY BUSINESS.
THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT DID NOT APPLY.
IF YOUR TML REGION IS HOSTING A TML REGIONAL TRAINING SESSION, YOU CAN ALL GO WITHOUT POSTING THE AGENDA 'CAUSE THAT'S AN EXCEPTION UNDER THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT.
STAFF MEETINGS WITH JUST YOUR DEPARTMENT HEADS AND YOUR CITY MANAGERS AND YOUR ACMS ARE NOT COVERED AT ALL UNLESS A QUORUM AND CITY COUNCIL HAPPENS TO ATTEND THOSE THINGS.
SO YES, SOMETIMES UH, YOUR CITY ATTORNEY WILL BE POSTING A NOTICE OF POSSIBLE QUORUM.
'CAUSE EVEN THOUGH THEY'VE POSTED FOR THE P AND Z, WE FIND OUT THAT Y'ALL ARE SO INTERESTED ABOUT ITEM NUMBER SEVEN ON P AND Z'S AGENDA.
YOU MIGHT JUST POP IN TO HEAR WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY.
WELL OKAY, MAYBE WE CAN DO A, A NOTICE OF POSSIBLE COUNCIL QUORUM 'CAUSE Y'ALL MIGHT ALL CHOOSE TO GO CRASH THE P AND Z MEETING.
SO YOU DO THAT AS A PREVENTATIVE MEASURE.
SO WHAT ARE THE BASICS? WE'VE TALKED ABOUT ALL THIS SETUP TO WHEN THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT APPLIES.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN? IT MEANS IF YOU'VE GOT A MEETING, YOU MUST HAVE AN AGENDA.
LET THE PUBLIC COME AND LISTEN AND WATCH AND SPEAK.
AND YOU MUST KEEP MINUTES TRACKING WHAT WAS DONE.
UM, YOU WANT TO BE VERY, VERY CAUTIOUS OF ACTION WITHOUT MEETINGS.
THAT'S ONE OF THE POINT THAT I'M GONNA BURN INTO YOUR BRAIN BECAUSE I THINK IT'S ONE OF THE RISKIER PARTS OF THE STATUTE.
UM, MANY, MANY YEARS AGO, THE CITY OF SAN ANTONIO HAD A NEWLY ELECTED COUNCIL MEMBER WHO HAD SEVERAL ISSUES HE WANTED TO ADDRESS ONCE HE GOT ON BOARD AND ONE WAS THEIR GRANT PROGRAM.
MAYBE YOU HAVE A SIMILAR GRANT PROGRAM WHERE YOU COULD PROVIDE A SERVICE BUT INSTEAD MAYBE A LOCAL NONPROFIT OR CHURCH PROVIDES THIS SERVICE FOR YOU AND YOU GIVE THEM SOME MONEY TO DO SOMETHING.
A COMMON EXAMPLE I SEE IS PERHAPS YOU HAVE A UM, OPTIMISM CLUB OR ANOTHER CLUB RUN YOUR BALL FIELDS AND SOME ARE LITTLE LEAGUE.
OKAY, YOU COULD RUN THAT WITH YOUR OWN PARKS DEPARTMENT.
YOU CHOOSE TO OUTSOURCE RUNNING IT TO A NONPROFIT.
UM, WELL THIS PARTICULAR COUNCILMAN IN SAN ANTONIO DID NOT WANT TO FUND THIS GROUP AT ALL AND SAID SO AND FELT SO STRONGLY ABOUT IT.
HE GOT OUT PEN AND PAPER AND WROTE, WHEN WE GET TO THE BUDGET, I WILL BE VOTING AGAINST FUNDING THIS NONPROFIT.
THEY'RE AGAINST EVERYTHING I STAND FOR.
THAT LETTER GOT PASSED AROUND AND IT WAS SIGNED BY COUNCILMAN B AND COUNCILMAN C AND COUNCILWOMAN D.
AND WHEN THE BUDGET CAME AROUND, GUESS WHAT? NO MOTION WAS MADE TO FUND THE NONPROFIT.
SO THE NONPROFIT DID NOT GET THEIR MONEY THAT YEAR AND THEY TOOK IT LIKE ADULTS AND THEY WENT OFF TO HAVE A BAKE SALE OR SOMETHING.
WHY WOULD I WASTE YOUR TIME WITH THAT STORY? THEY SUED.
THEY SUED AND I DON'T KNOW THEIR NAME AND I APOLOGIZE, I DON'T MEAN TO FORGET THEIR NAME, BUT SUFFICE TO SAY IT WAS THE GAY AND LESBIAN L-G-B-T-Q ALLIANCE OF SAN ANTONIO.
AND THEY SUED AND THEY WON AND THEY WENT UP ON THE COURT OF APPEALS AND THEY WON AGAIN.
'CAUSE THE CITY OF SAN ANTONIO'S COUNCIL MADE A DECISION WITHOUT HAVING A MEETING.
IMAGINE THE SAME SCENARIO WITH TEXT MESSAGES OR SOCIAL MEDIA OR SOMEONE'S BLOG.
YOU GO PUT SOMETHING OUT THERE WITH YOUR STATEMENT, I'M AGAINST THIS AND COME THE MEETING, I'M VOTING AGAINST IT.
AND ALL OF A SUDDEN A BUNCH OF COUNCIL MEMBERS COME AND LIKE YOUR COMMENT.
AND WHEN YOU GET TO THE DIA DURING THE MEETING, A
[00:35:01]
MOTION'S MADE, A VOTE TAKES PLACE, NO CONVERSATION.THE PUBLIC'S WONDERING HOW'D THAT HAPPEN? WELL IT'S EASY.
WE ALREADY HANDLED THIS ON SOCIAL MEDIA.
SO WHEN I WARN YOU AGAINST ACTION WITHOUT MEETINGS, THAT'S THE KIND OF THING THAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.
AND IT'S VERY EASY TO DO AND IT'S HARD TO AVOID.
YOU PAY A CITY STAFF MEMBER FULL-TIME TO MONITOR WHERE YOU GO, WHO YOU TALK TO AND WHAT YOU WRITE ABOUT.
AND SO EACH OF YOU INDIVIDUALLY HAVE TO CARRY THIS KNOWLEDGE AROUND WITH YOU AS YOU GO TO AVOID THAT KNOWING THAT YOU'VE GOT A PROFESSIONAL STAFF THAT WILL LOOK OUT FOR YOU.
SO WHEN I SAY BE CAREFUL ABOUT TEXTS AND SOCIAL MEDIA AND EMAILS, THESE ARE AMAZING TOOLS FOR GOVERNANCE.
BUT THEY CAN ALSO TRIP YOU UP IF YOU'RE NOT MINDFUL OF THE LAWS THAT APPLY TO THOSE SORTS OF RULES.
SO THE FIRST BIG REQUIREMENT IS AN AGENDA.
AN AGENDA IS NOT A COMPLICATED THING.
EVERY CITY DOES THEIRS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY.
MAYBE YOU LIKE YOUR STYLE, MAYBE YOU DON'T, I DON'T KNOW.
BUT WHAT YOU'RE REALLY DOING IS SAYING IS WHO'S GATHERING WHERE, WHEN, WHAT ARE THEY GONNA TALK ABOUT? THAT'S IT.
BUT IF YOU DON'T IDENTIFY IN ADVANCE WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT, YOU CAN'T TALK ABOUT IT WITH VERY FEW LIMITATIONS, VERY FEW EXCEPTIONS.
AND SO YOU HAVE TO PUT UP YOUR AGENDA 72 HOURS IN ADVANCE CONTINUALLY AT A BULLETIN BOARD, A KIOSK FRONT DOOR, FRONT WINDOW OF CITY HALL.
AND THEN IF YOU'RE GONNA HAVE A DIFFERENT MEETING PLACE, MAYBE YOU'RE GONNA GO OVER TO THE CONVENTION CENTER SOMEWHERE.
WELL THEN YOU GOTTA POST IT THERE TOO.
AND YOU ALSO HAVE TO POST IT ONLINE, NOT JUST A NOTICE OF YOUR MEETING.
BUT THE ACTUAL AGENDA HAS TO BE POSTED ONLINE CONTINUALLY FOR 72 HOURS.
AND IF SOMEONE BRINGS UP SOMETHING AT A MEETING THAT'S NOT ON THE AGENDA, YOU CAN'T DISCUSS AND VOTE ON IT.
YOU'RE LIMITED TO DOING THREE THINGS.
IF A CITIZEN WALKS UP THE PODIUM AND SAYS, Y'ALL HAVE TO KNOW ABOUT THIS ISSUE WITH DOGS IN THIS NEIGHBORHOOD, YOU CAN SAY, WELL WE HAVE AN ANIMAL CONTROL OFFICER AND THE CITY MANAGER HEARD THIS AND THEY'LL BE OUT THERE ON MONDAY.
OKAY? A STATEMENT OF CURRENT FACT, A STATEMENT OF CURRENT POLICY.
WE DON'T POLICE DOGS, THEY CAN RUN WILD, WE DON'T CARE.
BUT IF THAT'S CURRENT POLICY, YOU'RE ALLOWED TO SAY THAT.
THE THIRD THING YOU'RE ALLOWED TO DO IS SAY, CITY SECRETARY, PLEASE PUT THAT ON OUR NEXT AGENDA AND WE'LL DISCUSS THAT THE NEXT TIME WE GATHER.
THOSE ARE YOUR THREE LIMITATIONS YOU MAY CHOOSE TO DO OR SAY NOTHING.
IT'S NOT ON THE AGENDA, I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT IT.
BUT THE LAW GIVES YOU THOSE THREE OUTS SO YOU CAN RESPOND BUT YOU JUST CAN'T GET INTO A DEEP DISCUSSION AMONG YOURSELVES OR TAKE ACTION ON IT.
'CAUSE THERE'S OTHERS WHO MAY HAVE WANT TO COME WATCH YOUR CONVERSATION AND THEY DIDN'T SHOW UP 'CAUSE THEY DIDN'T KNOW YOU WERE GONNA TALK ABOUT IT 'CAUSE IT WAS NOT ON THE AGENDA.
I THINK YOU'VE ALREADY ANSWERED, I THINK YOU'VE ANSWERED MY QUESTION, BUT I'M STATE IN WITH NEW BUSINESS.
OKAY? THAT FALLS ON THE NEW BUSINESS, WHAT YOU JUST MENTIONED EARLIER.
IT CAN BE, YEAH, THE LAW DOESN'T TALK ABOUT THAT BUT BUT IT'S COMMON FOR AT THE END, MAYBE END OF AGENDA IS TO SAY, OKAY, COUNCIL MEMBERS OR THINGS YOU WANT US TO PUT ON THE NEXT AGENDA, TELL US AND WE'LL DO THAT.
BUT WHETHER YOU BREAK UP YOUR AGENDA BETWEEN OLD BUSINESS AND NEW BUSINESS, THAT'S JUST YOUR LOCAL CHOICE.
THE THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT DOESN'T CARE HOW YOU STRUCTURE YOUR AGENDA.
THE NEXT THING YOU HAVE TO DO IS HAVE MINUTES, WHICH IS JUST THE AGENDA WITH ANSWERS.
AND IF YOU HAVE A VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT CAPTURING EVERY WORD THAT EVERYONE SAID THE WHOLE MEETING, THAT'S YOUR LOCAL CHOICE.
THAT'S MORE THAN THE LAW REQUIRES.
WHAT ISSUES DID YOU TALK ABOUT? DID YOU TAKE ACTION? IF CITIZENS SPOKE FOR IT OR AGAINST IT, YOU CAN MAKE A NOTE OF THAT.
BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO PUT DOWN EVERY SINGLE THING THEY'VE SAID WITH TECHNOLOGY.
NOW IT'S NEVER BEEN EASIER TO RECORD OR VIDEOTAPE THOSE THINGS AND ARCHIVE THOSE IF YOU WANT TO HAVE THEM.
BUT YOU HAVE TO KEEP MINUTES OF OF WHO WAS PRESENT AND WHAT YOU TALKED ABOUT AND WHAT ACTION.
THAT'S THE ONLY EVIDENCE OF ACTION THAT COURTS CARE ABOUT.
MAYOR, I'LL PICK ON YOU 'CAUSE YOU'RE SITTING IN THE BIG CHAIR.
YOU CAN SIGN CONTRACTS ALL DAY LONG.
I ASSUME YOU GOT SOME CANDLES AND A STAFF AND YOU SEAL IT OFFICIALLY WITH THE MAYOR'S SEAL.
IF THERE'S NOT AN AGENDA SHOWING IT WAS ON A CITY COUNCIL MEETING AND THERE'S MINUTES SHOWING THE COUNCIL GAVE YOU THE AUTHORITY TO SIGN IT AND MAYBE YOU DELEGATE SIGNATURE AUTHORITY TO YOUR CITY MANAGER, THAT'S PERFECTLY FINE.
ARE THERE MINUTES SHOWING YOU DID IT? I REPRESENT CITIES RIGHT NOW THEY'RE IN MULTIMILLION DOLLAR LITIGATION BECAUSE BEFORE WE CAME ALONG, THERE'S ALL KINDS OF SIGNED CONTRACTS.
NO ONE CAN FIND AGENDAS OR MINUTES WHERE THE COUNCIL APPROVED THAT DEAL.
SO WHO SIGNED THAT? I EVEN HAVE ONE LAWSUIT GOING ON WHERE THE CITY ATTORNEY SIGNED A CONTRACT, NOT JUST APPROVED AS TO FORM.
THEY EXECUTED IT ON BEHALF OF THE CITY.
MR. FORMER CITY ATTORNEY WHO APPROVED YOU SIGNING ANYTHING? THE FORMER
[00:40:01]
Y'ALL.Y'ALL SEIZED ON THE FORMER WORD, RIGHT? FORMER.
NO, I AIN'T DOING ANYTHING WITHOUT COUNSEL APPROVAL WHEN IT COMES TO OBLIGATING US, BINDING US IN SOME FUTURE CONTRACT.
SO THE MINUTES ARE A VERY IMPORTANT DOCUMENT TO PROVE THAT YOU ACTUALLY DID SOMETHING.
THE THIRD PART CAN BE THE KICKER.
SOMETIMES MOST OF MY CAREER, THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT GUARANTEED THE PUBLIC A RIGHT TO COME AND WATCH YOU DELIBERATE AND LISTEN TO YOU DELIBERATE.
THERE IS NO RIGHT TO SPEAK IF THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO SPEAK, IT'S BECAUSE YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING THAT A DIFFERENT LAW REQUIRED TO HAVE A PUBLIC HEARING.
YOU CAN'T CHANGE ZONING WITHOUT A PUBLIC HEARING.
YOU CAN'T ADOPT A BUDGET WITHOUT A PUBLIC HEARING THAT ASSURES THE CITIZENS A RIGHT TO TALK.
THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT NEVER ASSURED THE RIGHT TO TALK UNTIL 2019.
AND THEY AMENDED THE STATUTE TO SAY, NOPE.
CITIZENS CAN SPEAK ON ANY AGENDA ITEM EITHER BEFORE YOU GET TO IT OR WHEN YOU GET TO IT.
WHY? 'CAUSE THERE WERE A HANDFUL OF CITIES THAT WOULD PUT CITIZEN COMMENT PERIODS AT THE END OF THEIR AGENDA.
OH, TOO BAD WE DIDN'T GET TO HEAR FROM YOU.
THAT'S JUST A TERRIBLE WAY TO GOVERN.
WHY ARE YOU IN DEMOCRACY IF YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR FROM CITIZENS? BUT THE LEGISLATURE CAME AND CHANGED SO NOW THEY GET TO TALK.
SO MAYBE YOU'LL COME UP AND SAY, HEY, I'M HERE TO SPEAK ON ITEM NUMBER EIGHT AND OUR MAYOR SAYS, WHAT'S FANTASTIC, WILL YOU WAIT UNTIL WE GET TO ITEM NUMBER EIGHT? I WILL NOT
I'M GOING HOME DINNER'S COOKING AND TV SHOW IS ON.
I DON'T WANNA STAY THEN PLEASE TELL US WHAT YOU WANNA SAY.
AND THAT'S KIND OF WHERE WE ARE NOW.
NOW I THINK THAT'S ON EVERY OPEN SESSION AGENDA ITEM.
IF YOU POST AN ITEM JUST FOR EXECUTIVE SESSION ONLY, I DON'T THINK THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO SPEAK, BUT NORMALLY I SAY JUST LET 'EM TALK.
JUST GIVE 'EM THEIR THREE MINUTES OR WHATEVER IT IS AND LET 'EM TALK.
NOW I DIDN'T WANNA SKIP OVER THIS OTHER PART.
WE, WE TRYING TO GET SOME QUESTIONS IN.
WE DON'T WANT YOU TO ENROLL TOO FAR AWAY.
UH, EXECUTIVE SESSION MINUTES.
ARE YOU THINK OR WHAT'S YOUR OPINION, LEGAL OPINION ABOUT HAVING MINUTES TAKEN AN EXECUTIVE SESSION? UH, MAY IT BE TAPING THE DEVICES OR HANDWRITTEN? WHAT'S YOUR OPINION ABOUT THAT? MY RULE OF THUMB HAS BEEN WHAT NEEDS TO BE SAID ABOUT EXECUTIVE SESSION CAN BE HANDWRITTEN ON THE BACK OF A BUSINESS CARD.
I DON'T THINK THE LAW REQUIRES MORE THAN THAT.
AND SO IF YOU DO MORE THAN THAT, WHY THE LAW REQUIRES WE MUST HAVE MINUTES OF EXECUTIVE SESSION.
THE STATUTE REFERS TO IT AS A CERTIFIED AGENDA.
BUT ALL IT SAYS IS WHEN DID IT OPEN? WHO WAS THERE? WHAT TOPICS DID YOU ADDRESS? WHAT ACTION DID YOU TAKE? WHEN DID IT CLOSE? AND WHAT'S WEIRD ABOUT THAT IS ACTION IS NOT ALLOWED TO BE TAKEN IN EXECUTIVE SESSION.
SO IT'S KIND OF A TRICK QUESTION IN THE LEGISLATION, UH, IN SOME CITIES THE MAYOR ALWAYS TAKES THE, THE FILLS OUT THE FORM.
IN SOME CITIES, A CITY ATTORNEY, IT'S MY DUTY TO FILL OUT THE FORM AND I ALWAYS WRITE, NONE, NONE, NONE.
THERE WAS NO ACTION TAKEN IN EXECUTIVE SESSION.
'CAUSE YOU CAN'T TAKE ACTION IN EXECUTIVE SESSION.
SO YOU MUST HAVE THOSE MINUTES.
IT'S IT'S CRIMINAL FOR YOU TO BE IN AN EXECUTIVE SESSION KNOWING SOMEONE'S NOT TAKING MINUTES.
BUT THE OFFICIAL MINUTES ARE THE ONLY MINUTES.
YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO KEEP YOUR OWN SET OF MINUTES.
YOU CANNOT PULL OUT YOUR IPHONE OR YOUR DROID AND RECORD IT.
THAT'S A VIOLATION OF THE STATUTE.
I ENCOURAGE PEOPLE NOT TO EVEN TAKE NOTES.
IF I HAND OUT THINGS IN EXECUTIVE SESSION, LIKE I HANDED OUT A CITY MANAGER'S EVALUATION TUESDAY NIGHT AT THE END OF EXECUTIVE SESSION, I COLLECTED ALL THOSE DRAFTS.
THERE'LL BE ONE VERSION COMING OUT OF THAT MEETING.
THE VERSION THAT'S OFFICIALLY VOTED ON BACK IN OPEN SESSION WHEN WE'RE DONE WITH EXECUTIVE SESSION.
BUT THEY'RE VERY, VERY SIMPLE.
THEY GET SEALED, THEY GO INTO A VAULT.
THEY ONLY COME OUT WHO HAS A RIGHT TO SEE EXECUTIVE SESSION MINUTES, A COUNCIL MEMBER AND A JUDGE.
AND I'VE BEEN IN TRIALS WHERE THE JUDGE HAS LOOKED AT THE MINUTES 'CAUSE THE PLAINTIFF WANTS TO RELEASE THE MINUTES.
'CAUSE I THINK IT SHOWS THAT SOMETHING DASTARDLY WAS DONE BEHIND CLOSED DOORS.
I'VE NEVER HAD A JUDGE RELEASE THE MINUTES, BUT I'M NOT REALLY WORRIED ABOUT IT 'CAUSE THEY DON'T SAY ANYTHING.
ANYWAY, WE'VE ALREADY ANNOUNCED WHAT ITEMS WE'RE GOING BEHIND CLOSED DOOR TO TALK ABOUT.
WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE ACTION IF YOU'RE KEEPING A TRANSCRIPT OF WHAT PEOPLE HAVE SAID IN EXECUTIVE SESSION, I THINK THAT'S DANGEROUS IF YOU'RE RECORDING EXECUTIVE SESSION.
I DON'T KNOW WHY I I WON'T DO IT.
UM, I THINK THE EXECUTIVE SESSION IS A REALLY NICE OPPORTUNITY FOR YOU TO GET TOGETHER CANDIDLY AND SPEAK HONESTLY WITH EACH OTHER.
HOPEFULLY RESPECTING THE SANCTITY OF EXECUTIVE SESSION AND NOT BLURTING WHAT'S BEEN SAID.
'CAUSE I TREAT THAT AS CONFIDENTIAL.
UH, YOU HAD YOUR LINE ON FIRST.
WE WE DON'T, UH, I LET, LET ME, LET
[00:45:01]
ME ASK MY QUESTION.I'LL, I'LL GET TO TO ALL OF YOU AND WE'LL GO THAT WAY.
ALL, UM, WHAT CAN SPEAK ON IN, IN IN EXECUTIVE SESSION? UM, CAN YOU, YOU, YOU'RE SAYING YOUR COMMENT KIND OF, UM, SPARKED SOMETHING WHEN YOU SAID YOU THINK IT'S A, A GREAT TIME FOR US TO TALK.
UM, CANDIDLY, WHAT CAN BE TALKED ABOUT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE POSTING, UH, OF WHAT CAN BE ALLOWED IN CLOSED SESSION? IT'S, IT'S KEPT PRETTY GENERAL SO THAT WE HAVE, UH, AN OPPORTUNITY TO REALLY TALK ABOUT SOME THINGS CANDIDLY.
DOESN'T IT? I MEAN, DOES ISN'T THAT WHAT THE POSTING IS DESIGNED TO DO? BECAUSE SOMETIMES WE HAVE BEEN TOLD, WELL, WE CAN'T DISCUSS SOME THINGS IN CLOSED SESSION.
I KNOW THAT, UH, UH, WHAT IT MIGHT BE, UH, PERSONNEL ISSUES OR SOMETHING OF, OF THAT, OF THAT, OF THAT MAGNITUDE.
I'LL I'LL DEFER TO YOUR CITY ATTORNEY FOR A MOMENT.
SO LIKE HE'S GONNA TELL YOU FOR PERSONNEL, YOU HAVE TO LIST THE PERSON.
IT HAS TO SPECIFICALLY SAY WHO THE PERSON IS.
SO LIKE WE CAN'T TALK GENERALLY ABOUT, YOU CAN'T TALK ABOUT A PERSON UNLESS IT'S POSTED TO TALK ABOUT THAT PERSON.
AND THEN THEY HAVE CERTAIN RIGHTS ONCE THAT'S KICKED IN.
I KNOW THAT SOMETIMES EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE THAT'LL COME UP.
BUT YOU HAVE TO PUT THE SPECIFIC PERSON THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
THAT PERSON AND THE PUBLIC HAVE TO HAVE NOTICE.
SO YOU, BUT YOU CAN'T SPEAK IN, IN, IN BROAD GENERALITIES.
YOU USUALLY HAVE TO PUT THE POSITION THAT OR THE TITLE.
LIKE IF WE HAD, IF WE HAD AN ISSUE WITH PERSONNEL, UM, THAT WAS BROAD OR A DEPARTMENT THAT WAS BROAD, LET'S SAY IT WAS NOT A SPECIFIC INDIVIDUAL IN THAT DEPARTMENT, BUT A DEPARTMENT, UH, AS A WHOLE THAT WAS NOT FUNCTIONING AND WE WANTED TO CAN, CAN THAT BE BROUGHT UP IN CLOSED SESSION? MM-HMM.
THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT IS WORDED IN A WAY THAT THE PERSONNEL JUSTIFICATION FOR GOING INTO EXECUTIVE SESSION IS TIED TO A PARTICULAR PERSON.
AND SO YOU MUST PUT THAT PERSON'S NAME OR POSSIBLY TITLE.
SO I'LL PICK ON OUR CITY MANAGER 'CAUSE HE'S, HE, HE'S A, HE'S A BIG BOY.
UH, IF YOU WANNA HAVE PERSONNEL MATTER TO EVALUATE THE PERFORMANCE AND CONTINUED EMPLOYMENT OF THE CITY MANAGER, THAT'S ALL YOU HAVE TO SAY.
'CAUSE YOU ONLY HAVE ONE CITY MANAGER.
SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO PUT BURDEN ON, ON, ON THAT AGENDA ITEM.
UM, AND THE MORE IMPORTANT THE POSITION IS, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AND THE COURTS HAVE RULED, THE MORE DETAILED YOU HAVE TO BE.
SO IF YOU ARE A, A RANK AND FILE WORKER IN THE PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT, UM, MAYBE YOU DON'T HAVE TO PUT AS MUCH DETAIL.
'CAUSE THE COURTS HAVE SAID THE PUBLIC'S INTEREST IS LOWER.
IF YOU'RE GOING TO DEAL WITH A FIRE CHIEF, POLICE CHIEF CITY, OKAY, NOW THE PUBLIC REALLY TENDS TO CARE.
YOU NEED TO BE MORE EXPLICIT IN WHAT YOU DO.
BUT WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT EXECUTIVE SESSIONS, THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT DOES NOT REQUIRE YOU TO IDENTIFY YOUR EXECUTIVE SESSIONS IN ADVANCE.
SO IF YOU KNOW YOU'RE GOING TO EXECUTIVE SESSION TO TALK ABOUT A LAWSUIT, SAY SO.
BUT YOU HAVE THE RIGHT DURING EXECUTIVE SESSION TO CALL TIME OUT AND GO BEHIND CLOSED DOORS ON ANY AGENDA ITEM YOU WANT TO, IF IT FALLS WITHIN THESE SIX BULLET POINTS, DO YOU, I DON'T KNOW IF WE HAVE OUR OWN ELECTRIC UTILITY.
OKAY, SO, SO THERE'S, THERE'S SIX JUSTIFICATIONS THAT ARE AVAILABLE TO YOU.
SEVEN IF YOU HAVE YOUR OWN ELECTRIC UTILITY, WHICH YOU DON'T.
SO THERE'S SIX REASONS AND THEY'RE ALL ON THE BOARD.
UH, MY FAVORITE OF COURSE, CONSULTATION WITH ATTORNEY AS LONG AS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT LEGAL STUFF.
SO YOU CAN'T PULL ME BEHIND CLOSED DOORS 'CAUSE YOU WANNA TALK FINANCES.
I'M NOT THE PERSON TO DO THAT.
THERE'S NO JUSTIFICATION THAT ALLOWS THAT.
LAWSUITS, ADMIN, LAW, CONTRACTS, EVEN IF YOU'RE WRESTLING WITH AN ORDINANCE AND YOU'RE ABOUT TO APPROVE IT, BUT YOU'RE NOT SURE YOU WANNA PUT SOMETHING IN IT THAT'S LEGAL STUFF.
YOU CAN TALK TO YOUR ATTORNEY ABOUT, UH, BEHIND CLOSED DOORS.
UM, REAL ESTATE, ARE YOU BUYING OR SELLING? IF EVERYONE KNEW WHAT YOU'RE WILLING TO PAY FOR A PIECE OF PROPERTY, YOU'RE NOT GONNA GET A GOOD DEAL ON IT.
WHICH MEANS THE TAXPAYERS GET ROBBED.
THAT'S WHY WE GET TO GO BEHIND CLOSED DOORS WITH BUYING AND SELLING REAL ESTATE.
BUT LAST NIGHT I WAS COMMUNICATING WITH ONE OF MY FORMER CITY MANAGERS 'CAUSE A PROJECT WE WORKED ON 20 YEARS AGO HAS COME TO FRUITION.
SOMEONE DONATED 300 ACRES FOR A PARK AND I'M JUST REALLY EXCITED ABOUT THAT.
THERE'S SOME STRINGS ATTACHED TO IT.
BUT WE COULD TALK ABOUT GIFTS, LIKE DONATIONS OF PARK LAND BEHIND CLOSED DOORS.
UH, PERSONNEL IS THE ONE THAT YOU BROUGHT UP.
AND PERSONNEL IS ABOUT A PERSON
[00:50:01]
HIRING, FIRING, TRANSFERRING, DISCIPLINING, INVESTIGATING AN OFFICER OR AN EMPLOYEE.OFFICER GETS MORE COMPLICATED.
UH, YOUR CITY ATTORNEY IS AN OFFICER.
NOW WHETHER ANYBODY ELSE IS AN OFFICER, LOOK AT YOUR CODE OF ORDINANCES.
HOW DO THEY TREAT THEM? LOOK AT YOUR CHARTER TO SEE HOW THEY TREAT THEM.
YOU USE THE TERM CITY OFFICIAL IN YOUR CODE OF ETHICS.
WHAT DOES AN OFFICIAL MEAN? THEY'RE AN OFFICER, WHICH MEANS YOU CAN TALK ABOUT THEM BEHIND CLOSED DOORS, MAYBE
YOU HAVE TO, YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE PARTICULARS AND GET AN OPINION FROM YOUR ATTORNEY TO DEAL WITH THAT.
BUT, UH, IF YOU WOULD NEED TO TALK ABOUT RECRUITING A NEW CHIEF OF POLICE AND YOU'VE GOT FIVE EXECUTIVE SEARCH FIRMS AND YOU WANT TO GO BACK BEHIND CLOSED DOORS TO DISCUSS WHICH ONE YOU'RE GONNA HIRE, YOU CAN DO THAT.
YOU STILL HAVE TO COME OUT AN OPEN SESSION TO HIRE THAT EXECUTIVE SEARCH FIRM.
BUT BECAUSE YOU'RE SPECIFICALLY TALKING ABOUT THE VACANT CHIEF OF POLICE POSITION, HYPOTHETICALLY YOU CAN DO THAT SECURITY.
IT'S A BEAUTIFUL DI YOU'RE AT.
IS IT BULLETPROOF? UH, I, I FOUND THE BACK DOOR BEHIND THERE.
IT LEADS TO THE COFFEE POT IN THE RESTROOM.
WHO ELSE KNOWS ABOUT WHAT'S BACK THERE? WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THERE'S A BOMB THREAT? I'VE WORKED FOR CITIES WHEN BOMB THREATS HAVE BEEN CALLED IN DURING MEETINGS.
WHAT DO YOU DO? YOU CAN GO BEHIND CLOSED DOORS AND TALK ABOUT ALL OF THAT.
WHAT DOES YOUR CHIEF WANT YOU TO DO AND NOT DO WHEN THERE'S AN ACTIVE SHOOTER? THOSE ARE SECURITY MEASURES THAT YOU CAN TALK ABOUT BEHIND CLOSED DOORS IN EXECUTIVE SESSION.
THE FINAL ONE IS ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT.
THAT IS WHERE A SPECIFIC PROJECT AND YOU ARE OFFERING SOME FORM OF INCENTIVES TO KEEP THEM HERE, ATTRACT THEM HERE OR HELP THEM GROW HERE.
AND IF TALKING ABOUT THAT DEAL OUTSIDE MIGHT BLOW THE DEAL, THEN YOU CAN GO BEHIND CLOSED DOORS TO TALK ABOUT ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT INCENTIVES.
THOSE ARE THE ONLY REASONS YOU GET TO GO IN EXECUTIVE SESSION.
SO IF YOU HAVE AN AGENDA ITEM THAT YOU THINK REQUIRES A DISCREET CONVERSATION, CAN YOU FIT IT INTO ONE OF THOSE SIX BUCKETS? AND IF NOT, YOU DON'T GET TO DO IT.
WHICH MEANS SHOULD YOU HAVE HAD A CONVERSATION WITH SOMEBODY BEFORE THE MEETING OFFLINE? DO YOU NEED TO FORM A COMMITTEE TO GO OFF AND WORK ON IT BEFORE THE NEXT MEETING? THERE'S DIFFERENT WAYS YOU CAN DEAL WITH THAT, BUT IF THE WHOLE COUNCIL'S TOGETHER AS A QUORUM, YOU'VE GOT TO BE TALKING IN OPEN SESSION UNLESS YOU FALL WITHIN ONE OF THOSE SIX CATEGORIES.
ALAN, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT, UH, UH, A PERSON SPEAKING, A CITIZEN SPEAKING.
I NEED A LITTLE CLARIFICATION.
YOU, YOU SAID THAT THEY CAN COME UP AND SPEAK AT ANY TIME ON AGENDA ITEM, BUT THE, IF I'M NOT CORRECT THAT AREN'T WE SUPPOSED TO CONDUCT THE AGENDA IN THE ORDER IN WHICH IT'S DONE? AND IF WE'RE GONNA TAKE AN ITEM OUT OF ORDER, IT'S WHAT BE VOTED ON.
THAT DOESN'T MATTER OF LOCAL POLICY.
ALRIGHT, THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT DOESN'T CARE IF YOU GO THROUGH YOUR AGENDA IN ORDER.
AND, UM, IF YOU HAVE RULES OF PROCEDURE, THEN FOLLOW THOSE RULES.
AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE THEM, THEN VOTE TO MODIFY THEM.
UM, THE, THE EXAMPLES I LIKE IS WHEN YOU SEE THAT THERE'S A WHOLE LOT OF CITIZENS HERE AND THEY GOT A WHOLE LOT TO SAY ABOUT ITEM NUMBER 12, YOU DON'T HAVE TO MAKE THEM WAIT TO ITEM NUMBER 12, BRING IT UP EARLY AND LET THEM GO HOME.
OR IF YOU'RE PAYING A LOT OF CONSULTANTS AND THEY'RE BILLING YOU BY THE MINUTE SITTING OUT HERE, BRING THAT ITEM UP AND THEN SEND THEM BACK TO THE HOTEL.
UH, BUT THAT'S, THAT'S UP TO, FIRST OF ALL, I THINK THAT DECISION IS UP TO YOUR MAYOR UNLESS THE COUNCIL OVERRIDES THE MAYOR OR THE COUNCIL HAS ADOPTED RULES OF PROCEDURE.
IF YOU DON'T HAVE PROCEDURE, THE MAYOR'S THE PRESIDING OFFICER AND I DEFER TO THAT PERSON.
OKAY? THE OTHER ONE IS, UH, ANNOUNCING ITEMS PRIOR TO YOUR EXECUTIVE SESSION.
YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT, THEY GIVE YOU A LOT OF EXAMPLES ON HOW AND, AND WHAT TO ANNOUNCE.
UH, AND YOU'RE GONNA TALK ABOUT IS JUST THE SECTION ACCEPTABLE WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE GONNA TALK ABOUT.
THE ITEM UNDER THAT BEFORE YOU GO INTO EXECUTIVE SESSION.
THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT REQUIRES THE MAYOR, THE PRESIDING OFFICER, TO ANNOUNCE WE'RE GOING TO EXECUTIVE SESSION ON ITEM NUMBER SEVEN PURSUANT TO 5 5 1 0.07.
ONE OF THE TEXAS GOVERNMENT CODE.
OKAY? THE PRESIDING OFFICER IDENTIFIED THE ITEM AND THE SECTION, OKAY, NOW I'VE HAD A P AND Z WE'RE GOING INTO EXECUTIVE SESSION TO TALK TO OUR LAWYER ABOUT ITEM NUMBER SEVEN.
[00:55:01]
NEXT WEEK A LOCAL LAWYER IN TOWN COMES UP AND JUST BLASTS THEM FOR VIOLATING THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT.'CAUSE YOU FORGOT TO SAY THE SECTION NUMBER.
THERE'S AN ATTORNEY GENERAL OPINION THAT SAYS, IF THEY SAID THE JUSTIFICATION, THAT'S CLOSE ENOUGH.
AND I'M LIKE, COME ON, HOW, HOW MUCH ARE WE GONNA REQUIRE THESE VOLUNTEERS TO LEARN AND DO TO CONDUCT BUSINESS? BUT IDEALLY YOU'RE ALWAYS GONNA SAY THE SECTION AND THE ITEM IT RELATES TO, WELL, WELL, YOU KNOW, THAT'S, THAT'S THE PART WHERE I'M GETTING WHERE I NEED READY FOR YOU TO CLARIFY.
YOU KEEP SAYING IDENTIFY THE SECTION AND I KNOW THAT I UNDERSTAND THAT.
BUT WHEN YOU REFER TO ITEM, AGENDA ITEM, RIGHT, IF THE AGENDA ITEM IS NOT LISTED, HOW DO THEY KNOW WHAT THE ITEM IS THAT YOU'RE GONNA TALK ABOUT OF THAT SECTION? I'M NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND.
YOU CAN ONLY, YOU CAN ONLY TALK ABOUT ITEMS THAT ARE ON THE AGENDA.
AND I, OKAY, LET ME, LET ME, UH, LEMME DO IT THIS WAY.
SORRY, I'M GRABBING MY AGENDA.
YOU WANT TO HOLD, RIGHT? YEAH, YOU KNOW, HOLD UP ALAN.
WE COULD USE REALISTIC EXAMPLES SO WE DON'T HAVE TO GO THROUGH THERE.
LET ME TELL YOU EXACTLY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.
THIS IS NOT HOLDING, IT'S TODAY.
SO ON TODAY'S AGENDA YESTERDAY, OKAY, LEMME KNOW WE, WE CAN LOOK AT THAT.
WHILE, WHILE WE'RE GETTING THAT TOGETHER, I'M LOOKING AT TODAY'S AGENDA AND I CAN SAY, OKAY, AS MAYOR, I AM SAYING, UH, WE ARE GOING INTO EXECUTIVE SESSION ON ITEM TWO THREE, WHICH IS ETHICS TO TALK TO OUR LAWYER UNDER 5 5 1 0.07, ONE OF THE TEXAS GOVERNMENT CODE.
THAT'S, I'M GONNA GIVE YOU A REALISTIC OKAY.
EXAMPLE PLEASE OF WHAT I'M SAYING.
THIS IS OUR MEETING FROM NOVEMBER THE SEVENTH.
IT SAYS CLOSED MEETING EXECUTIVE SECTION.
IT GOES ON TO READ IT IN, IN ORDER TO COMPLY WITH, YOU KNOW, THAT SECTION IS MANDATORY.
OKAY? THEN WE SAYS A CLOSED SECTION OR EXECUTIVE SECTION WILL NOW BE HELD PURSUANT TO THE FOLLOWING SECTIONS OF CHAPTER 5 5, 1 TEXAS GOVERNMENT CODE.
AND THEN WHAT WE HAVE LISTED AS THE ITEMS ARE NUMBER ONE, SECTION 5 5 1 0.07, ONE OF THE GOVERNMENT CODE TO DISCUSS AND RECEIVE LEGAL ADVICE AND CONSULTANT FROM THE CITY ATTORNEY REGARDING POTENTIAL AND OR PENDING CLAIMS, CONTRACT LITIGATION AND OTHER LEGAL MATTERS IN INVOLVING THE CITY.
NOW THAT'S 5 5 1, BUT IT'S NO ITEMS. AND YOU SEE MY UNDERSTANDING WHEN I WENT TO THE SECTION, UH, WITH THE OPEN MEETING ACT, THEY ALWAYS SAID, YOU MUST LIST THE ITEM ON THE, EACH SECTION THAT YOU WILL BE DISCUSSING IN A CLOSED SESSION.
AND THAT GOES TO THE PART WHEN YOU MADE A STATEMENT ALSO THAT SAID THAT, UH, WHEN YOU ANNOUNCED THE ITEM, RIGHT, WE COULD GO INTO CLOSED SESSION.
I THINK IN IF YOU READ THE OPENING, I IS ALSO MENTIONED THE FACT THAT THE REASON THE ITEMS ARE ANNOUNCED IS BECAUSE ANYONE PRESENT HAS THE OPPORTUNITY TO QUESTION WHETHER IT'S A CLOSED SESSION ITEM OR NOT.
AND I THINK THAT'S, THAT'S WHAT WE REALLY NEED A CLARIFICATION ON BECAUSE I COULD NEVER, EVERY, EVERY INSTRUCTION I'VE EVER, OR EVERY TIME I'VE BEEN TO CLASSES ON THE OPEN MEETING ACT, WHEN IT COME TO EXECUTIVE SESSION, THEY ALWAYS SAID, YOU LIST THE ITEM AND THE SECTION FOR WHICH IT FALLS UNDER.
BUT WHEN YOU LIST JUST A SECTION THAT MEAN YOU CAN TALK ABOUT ANYTHING UNDER THAT SECTION.
CAN I, CAN I RESPOND REAL QUICK? SURE.
I WANT, I THINK I GOT A, I THINK WE ARE BOTH RIGHT,
IF YOU LOOK AT THE AGENDA, YOU'RE RIGHT, IT DOES JUST SAY 5 5 1 0 7 1 LITIGATION LAND.
AND REALLY THE INTENT OF WHY WE HAD THAT WAS JUST TO LIST THE STATUTE.
SO THIS, THIS INFORMATION, THIS LITTLE FIRST PARAGRAPH INFORMATION IS NOT NECESSARILY NEEDED.
BUT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT CLOSED MEETING, IF YOU GO UNDER THERE, THAT'S THE PART THAT WE ARE REALLY TALKING ABOUT.
SO WE MAY NOT NEED TO, WE HAD BEEN PUTTING THIS TOP PART FOR YEARS FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES, BUT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT WHERE WE'RE REALLY GONNA TALK ABOUT, IT'S THESE ONES
[01:00:01]
DOWN HERE WHERE WE GIVE MORE DETAIL.THAT'S, AND IT IS KIND OF DOUBLE WHAMMY ON THERE.
WELL, THAT HAS BEEN ALL MY, THAT'S BEEN MY POINT SINCE I'VE BEEN ON COUNCIL AND I'VE RECEIVED INSTRUCTIONS ABOUT THE, ABOUT THE CLOSED SESSION AND, AND THE AGENDA IS ALWAYS HAS SAID THE ONLY REQUIREMENT THAT IS NEEDED WAS THE FACT THAT YOU MUST ANNOUNCE THE ITEM THAT YOU'RE GOING TO DISCUSS.
AND THE SECTION FOR WHICH IT'S FALL UNDER, YOU'RE RIGHT, THIS FIRST PART OF THE OPEN MEETING, THAT'S NOT A REQUIREMENT.
THE REQUIREMENT IS THAT WE WILL CONVENE IN THE CLOSED SECTION, THIS FIRST PARAGRAPH, THEN WE GO DOWN HERE TO THE ITEM AND IT SHOULD SAY, WE'RE GONNA DISCUSS THE SALE OF LOT THIS, THIS, THIS IN.
AND THAT SHOULD BE 5, 5 1 POINT WHATEVER COVER THAT WE SUPPOSED TO ANNOUNCE THE ITEM.
AND THAT'S THE KEY RIGHT THERE, BECAUSE WHATEVER WE TALK ABOUT, ANYONE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO QUESTION.
AND IF YOU, AND IF I READ THE OPEN MEETING ACT, THAT'S WHAT IT WAS SAYING, ALAN, AND SEE I HAVE A, I HAVE A REAL THICKER ABOUT THAT.
AND THE REASON BEING, THAT'S HOW YOUR EXECUTIVE SECTIONS GET TO GOING.
BECAUSE WHEN YOU JUST USE THE SECTION, THAT MEANS THAT ANYTHING THAT FALLS ON THAT SECTION YOU COULD TALK ABOUT IN THE EXECUTIVE SESSION IS SUPPOSED TO BE WHEREBY WE HAVE A LIST OF ITEMS THAT WE'RE GOING TO DISCUSS FOR THAT EXECUTIVE SESSION AND EVERYBODY SHOULD KNOW WHAT ITEMS WE ARE DISCUSSING IN THE EXECUTIVE SESSION.
AND WHEN YOU LIST THE ITEMS, THEN THAT'S ALL YOU COULD TALK ABOUT.
THAT'S ALL YOU COULD TALK ABOUT.
AND THAT'S WHY YOU COULD GET THE SEXES TO COME BACK.
AND THAT'S COME OUT BEEN VERY ADAMANT ABOUT IT BECAUSE EVERY TIME I'VE BEEN TO TL OR I HAVE HAD SESSIONS ON THE OPEN MEETING ACT, EVERY TIME THEY EXPLAIN THE CLOSED SECTION, THEY ALWAYS DID SAY YOU ANNOUNCED THE ITEM AND THE SECTION OF THE OPEN MEETING ACT FOR WHICH IT PERTAINS TO, AND IT'S ANNOUNCED PRIOR TO THAT SO THAT IF ANYBODY WANT TO QUESTION WHETHER IT SHOULD BE A CLOSED ITEM OR PUBLIC, THEY HAVE THAT OPPORTUNITY TO ADDRESS THAT.
BECAUSE OTHER THAN THAT, YOU JUST SAY IT AND YOU GO, BUT THAT'S, THAT'S ON THE AGENDA.
WE ALWAYS SAY, YOU ALWAYS HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO QUESTION ANY ITEM ON YOUR AGENDA.
YOU KNOW? BUT THIS I NEVER HAVE GONE ALONG WITH.
'CAUSE LIKE I SAID, WE MUST LET PEOPLE KNOW WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IN AN EXECUTIVE SESSION.
WE CANNOT JUST STATE THE SECTION AND READ WHAT IT PERTAINS TO.
AND IF I, IF I, IF I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, I, I, YOU, I THINK I'VE MENTIONED THIS A FEW TIMES.
THERE'S 1200 CITIES IN TEXAS, WHICH MEANS THERE'S 1200 DIFFERENT WAYS OF DOING THINGS.
AND A LOT OF THINGS THAT PEOPLE THINK ARE LAW ARE REALLY JUST LOCAL POLICY, LOCAL PRACTICE, LOCAL TRADITION.
UH, IT WAS THAT WAY WHEN I GOT HERE.
AND THAT'S THE WAY THEY DO THINGS.
AND SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, UH, TELLS ME THAT YOU MAY WANNA PUT SOME THOUGHT INTO REVISITING HOW YOUR AGENDA IS STRUCTURED, HOW IT'S WORDED, WHAT GOES ON THERE, AND THEN HOW YOU ACTUALLY CALL UP ITEMS FOR EXECUTIVE SESSION DURING MEETINGS.
AND THAT MIGHT BE ONE OF THE PRODUCTIVE THINGS THAT COMES OUT OF THIS EDUCATIONAL WORKSHOP TODAY.
WELL, THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT OF BRINGING IT UP TO YOU BECAUSE LIKE YOU SAY, YOU, YOU TEACH IT AT TML AND THAT'S WHERE I GET MY INFORMATION FROM AT TML AND IT'S TO THESE SECTIONS.
AND THEY CLEARLY STATE, BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE THE LUXURY OF GOING INTO A CLOSED SECTION AND DISCUSS ANYTHING.
'CAUSE IT'S FALL UNDER THIS SECTION, WE ARE SUPPOSED TO LIST THE ITEM THAT WE ARE GONNA DISCUSS ON THIS AGENDA FOR THE CLOSED SECTION.
YOU HAVE TO IDENTIFY IT AND SAY IT OUT LOUD.
AND AGAIN, IF YOU CAN ANTICIPATE IN ADVANCE EXECUTIVE SESSION ITEMS, YOU CAN LIST THEM ON THE AGENDA, BUT YOU'RE NOT LIMITED TO THAT.
MAYBE YOU'RE NOT, YOU HAD NO IDEA THAT A CERTAIN ISSUE WOULD BE CONTROVERSIAL.
[01:05:01]
DURING A MEETING AND ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU JUST REALLY, REALLY NEED TO TALK TO YOUR CITY ATTORNEY.THEN YOU CAN GO INTO EXECUTIVE SESSION ON THAT ITEM UNDER CONSULTATION WITH ATTORNEY OH SEVEN ONE.
YEAH, BUT SEE THAT'S, I DON'T WANNA CONFUSE HIM RIGHT NOW BECAUSE WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IT IS A DIFFERENT ISSUE.
OKAY? WE KNOW THAT AT ANY POINT ON ANY ITEM, THE CITY ATTORNEY CAN STOP US AND SAYS, HEY, WE NEED TO HAVE A CLOSED SESSION BECAUSE THAT MAY BE POSSIBLE LITIGATION OR WE MAY BE SAYING SOMETHING THAT WOULD GET US IN TROUBLE.
I'M, I'M STICKING WITH WHAT WE'RE, WHAT THE DISCUSSION IS ABOUT THE CLOSED SESSION.
AND, AND I JUST NEED THAT CLARITY BECAUSE THE CLOSED SESSION IS SUPPOSED TO BE WHERE WE DISCUSS ITEMS THAT WE HAVE SCHEDULED FOR OUR CLOSED SESSION, NOT JUST A SECTION.
BECAUSE IF WE PUT JUST A SECTION, IF WE, WHATEVER WE TALK ABOUT IN THE SECTION, IT'S OKAY, BUT HOW DO WE KNOW OR WHAT DO PEOPLE KNOW WHAT WE DISCUSSED? AND ON THE OPEN MEETING, EVERYTHING I'VE GOTTEN IS ALWAYS REFERRED TO, YOU MUST STATE THE ITEM AND THE SECTION OF THE, OF THE LOCAL GO OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT CODE.
NOW THAT'S ALL I NEED TO ANSWER.
UH, BUT SIR AND ALAN, YES, PLEASE.
UH, YOU ANSWERED, I THINK SUCCINCTLY 1200 CITIES IN TEXAS HAS DONE 1200 DIFFERENT WAYS, LIKE 254 COUNTIES AND 254 UH, WAYS.
AND I HEAR WHAT THE COUNCILMAN, UH, UC IS SAYING.
HOWEVER, WHAT I'VE SEEN THE ATTORNEYS PRACTICE HERE SINCE I'VE BEEN HERE, OKAY? AND EVEN WITH MY TRAINING, WE ARE IN COMPLIANCE.
THE WAY THAT WE PUT OUT THE AGENDA AND THE COMPLIANT ACT IS THERE IS WHATEVER SECTION 5 5 1 0.072, WHATEVER THAT SAYS, 5 5 1 0.074.
THAT IN ITSELF IS A BROAD STATEMENT FROM MY UNDERSTANDING.
AM I CORRECT ON THAT? BECAUSE THEY WOULD GIVE YOU THREE OR FOUR DIFFERENT AREAS OF THAT PARTICULAR, UH, ARTICLE NUMBER.
AND YOU CAN TALK ABOUT, UH, PROPERTY, UH,
SO THE ATTORNEYS HAVE ALWAYS, WHAT I'VE NOTICED NOW HERE, THEY HAVE DONE THEIR JOB AND THEY ARE DOING THEIR JOBS BY KEEPING US IN COMPLIANCE.
BECAUSE EVEN AT AGENDA REVIEW THAT I'M PRIVY TO HAVE, I'M TOLD WHAT SPECIFIC ITEMS, THINGS THAT WE ARE GOING TO TALK ABOUT COVERING OR UNDER THAT PARTICULAR ARTICLE, IF I'M SAYING IT CORRECTLY.
AND THEN WE COMPLY WITH, IF IT'S THE SALE OF SOME PROPERTY NOW, BUT NOW 5 5 1 4 0 7 2 OR WHICHEVER MAY GIVE YOU FOUR OR FIVE OPTIONS THAT YOU CAN COVER.
BUT WE ALREADY KNOW THAT AT THIS PARTICULAR MEETING, WE ARE GOING TO DISCUSS THIS, YOU KNOW, THIS ONE ITEM.
SO I MEAN, IT IS NOT THAT WE ARE OUT OF COMPLIANCE, IT IS AS WHAT YOU JUST SAID, A LOCAL PRACTICE THAT HAS HAPPENED HERE.
AND I DON'T THINK THAT OR WE ARE DOING ANYTHING WRONG.
UH, ARE WE THE MAYOR? I'M NOT DOING A COMPLIANCE AUDIT.
SO I I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT ANY OF, IN ANY OF THIS.
MAYOR, YOU, YOU GAVE ME THE FLOW.
I WAS ASKING A QUESTION AND YOU JUST INTERRUPT AND I'M GETTING INTERRUPT.
SO I, I DECIDED TO SAY TO OUR WORKSHOP A FACILITATOR OF HOW WE, OF HOW WE'RE DOING.
NO, WE, WE, I I DIDN'T, OKAY, LET ME INTERRUPT.
LET THE COUNCIL MAYOR IT, MAYOR DON DON'T DO THAT.
YOU CAN RULE, BUT THEN THIS COUNCIL WILL DECIDE.
YOU'D HAVE TO RAISE YOUR VOICE.
NO, NO, BUT REALLY YOU NEED TO, YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND.
I, AND I DO UNDERST UNDERSTAND, SIR, I RESPECT YOU AS AND I RESPECT YOU.
DID YOU HEAR WHAT I SAID, SIR? NO.
IF YOU DON'T GO WAIT, WAIT A MINUTE.
DID YOU HEAR WHAT I SAID? YOU JUST TOLD ME.
DID YOU HEAR WHAT I SAID? I HEARD YOU MAYOR.
BUT LET'S LET, LET'S NOT DO THAT NO MORE TO ME.
WELL, NO'S LET'S, LET'S NOT IT'S A PROPER WAY TO DO IT'S IMPLICATION THAT WE ARE DOING SOMETHING.
AND IF YOU LET HIM SPEAK, BUT YOU'VE NEVER GIVEN HIM AN OPPORTUNITY TO ANSWER IT, GIVE GIVE HIM THE OPPORTUNITY TO ANSWER IT.
OKAY? LET'S GET OUT HERE, MAYOR.
OKAY, WELL, LET'S GIVE HIM THE OPPORTUNITY TO ANSWER.
ALL RIGHT, LET HIM COMPLETE BACK TO WHAT I WAS SAYING, ALAN, IT'S NOT
[01:10:01]
ARGUMENTATIVE ON MY POINT.I WAS ONLY, I WAS ONLY INFORMING YOU OF WHAT I HEARD FROM HIM AS I LISTENED TO WHAT HIS, HIS DISSERTATION HAS BEEN, IS THAT THIS IS HOW WE DO IT.
AND I WAS LETTING YOU KNOW, ACCORDING TO A STATEMENT THAT YOU MADE.
YEAH, BUT WAIT, YOUR TURN, MAYOR.
THIS IS HOW, SO LOCALLY, WE'VE, WE'VE DONE THIS.
SAY THAT AIN'T NO, NO, DON'T DO THAT.
LET'S NOT SAY, OKAY, LET'S LET, LET, LET'S WORK TOGETHER.
NOW, BACK TO THE TOPIC THAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, BECAUSE IT'S A, IT, IT IS A, IT, IT IS A BIG THING FOR ME.
'CAUSE LIKE I SAID, ALAN, I'VE ATTENDED A LOT OF THESE SESSIONS AND LIKE YOU SAID, A LOT OF TIME PEOPLE COME IN AND THEY DOING WHAT WAS PREVIOUSLY DONE AND THEY ACCEPT IT AS BEING RIGHT.
BUT ALL THE TRAINING I HAVE RECEIVED, AND I HAVE MENTIONED THIS, BUT FOR SOME REASON IT'S ON DEATH, IS BECAUSE PEOPLE WAS TOO LOCKED IN TO WHAT WAS BEING DONE PRIOR TO, AND THEY WERE ACCEPTING IT.
BUT TODAY IS TRAINING AND WE BROUGHT YOU IN.
AND THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING IS GIVE HIM A CHANCE TO TRAIN THIS, PLEASE, ON THESE SECTION POINT OF ORDER.
IF I'M CORRECT, GIVE HIM A CHANCE TO TRAILER US UNDER THESE SECTIONS.
THIS SECTION HERE CLEARLY STATES THAT WE MUST LIST THE ITEM.
AND THIS A SECTION IS NOT AN ITEM.
SO DOES THE OPEN MEETING ACT SAYS WE MUST LIST THE ITEMS, OR DOES IT SAY YOU COULD LIST THE SECTION.
SO THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT REQUIRES THAT BEFORE YOU GO BEHIND CLOSED DOORS FOR EXECUTIVE SESSION, THE PRESIDING OFFICER ANNOUNCES WHAT ITEMS ON THE AGENDA YOU'RE GOING TO BE DISCUSSING AND THE SECTION NUMBER, AND YOU MAY APPROACH IT A DIFFERENT WAY THAT GETS THE SAME RESULT.
I DON'T KNOW, I'M NOT HERE TO DO A COMPLIANCE AUDIT OR CHECK ON THAT.
BUT I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT AFTER TODAY'S CONVERSATION, UH, STAFF WILL LOOK AT THE AGENDA, THE PROCESS COUNSEL USES TO BRING ITEMS UP AND COME BACK TO YOU AND DECIDE WHETHER THERE'S ANY CHANGES THAT NEED TO BE MADE.
YOU SEE, THAT'S WHY, AND I THINK, I THINK THAT WILL AVOID CRITICISM, UH, OR ANYONE QUESTIONING, YOU KNOW, WHAT Y'ALL DO IN THE FUTURE.
AND THAT'S, THAT'S THE RESULT OF DOING THINGS LIKE TRAINING.
AS YOU HEAR FROM A DIFFERENT LAWYER WHO'S NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT Y'ALL DO.
I'M JUST HERE TO PROVIDE INFORMATION AND I, I, I HEAR WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.
YEAH, I THINK I THAT, UH, I DON'T DISAGREE WITH ANYTHING THAT YOU'VE SAID, BUT I'LL ADMIT TO EVERYONE, I HAVE NOT REVIEWED YOUR REGULAR AGENDAS OR WATCHED A SINGLE VIDEO OF YOUR MEETING TO SEE IF Y'ALL ARE IN COMPLIANCE OR NOT.
I TRUST YOUR CITY MANAGER AND CITY ATTORNEY TO DO THAT.
AND IF THEY WANNA CALL ME, UH, WE CAN TALK ABOUT IT TOMORROW.
OKAY? SO IF THAT WORKS FOR YOU, I'LL, I'LL SEE IF MAYOR PROTE STILL HAS A QUESTION.
SEE, THAT'S WHY, THAT'S WHY I WANTED TO BRING IT TO YOU.
THAT'S WHY I READ IT VERBATIM.
I WANT YOU TO SEE THAT IT WASN'T AN ITEM, IT WAS JUST A ACCIDENT.
THAT'S THE ONLY REASON I'M READY.
SO I'M ALL, I'M ALL IN AGREEMENT.
I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE SHOULD DO.
I'M NOT SAYING WE'RE GONNA CHANGE THIS OR WE'RE WRONG.
I'M SAYING THAT BASED ON THE TRAINING SURE.
AND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, WE JUST NEED TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT IT.
IF NOTHING ELSE, PRESENTATIONS LIKE THIS GIVE YOU A REASON TO QUESTION WHAT YOU'VE BEEN DOING AND SEE IF THERE'S A BETTER WAY.
AND, AND MAYBE ON SOME OF THESE ITEMS YOU'LL DECIDE STARTING TOMORROW, THERE'S A DIFFERENT WAY TO DO IT.
THAT'S KIND OF THE BENEFIT OF HEARING FROM SOMEBODY WHO'S NOT YOUR NORMAL, UH, CITY ATTORNEY OR TRAINER.
AND I'M HAPPY TO SERVE THAT PURPOSE.
I I KNOW THAT MAYOR PROIN HAMILTON HAD HER LIGHT ON FOR A LITTLE WHILE.
IS IT ILLEGAL OR JUST UNETHICAL TO DISCUSS THE DETAILS OF EXECUTIVE SESSION WITH THE PUBLIC? I WENT TO LAW SCHOOL FOR THREE YEARS, SO THAT I COULD TELL YOU, IT DEPENDS.
THE ANSWER EVERYONE HATES IF WHAT IS DISCUSSED IN EXECUTIVE SESSION IS CONFIDENTIAL, SUCH AS INFORMATION YOUR CITY ATTORNEY GIVES YOU REGARDING, UH, LITIGATION, FOR YOU TO GO OUTSIDE AND, AND LEAK CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION IS A VIOLATION OF STATE LAW.
WHO GETS TO DETERMINE WHAT'S CONFIDENTIAL, ULTIMATELY A COURT
BUT YOU DON'T WANT TO END UP THERE.
AND SO I ALWAYS, EXCUSE ME, RECOMMEND THAT CITY STAFF MAKE IT CLEAR IF INFORMATION IS CONFIDENTIAL OR NOT, EITHER IN THEIR WORDS OR IN THEIR DOCUMENTS.
UM, STATE LAW, AND THIS IS, THIS IS, THERE'S A, THERE'S A LOT OF MYTHS AND MISUNDERSTANDING ABOUT OPEN MEETINGS.
[01:15:01]
NOTHING IN THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT SAYS THAT WHAT IS DISCUSSED IN EXECUTIVE SESSION IS CONFIDENTIAL.THERE'S AN OLD ATTORNEY GENERAL OPINION THAT SAYS THAT.
SO WHAT DOES MAKE IT CONFIDENTIAL? OTHER LAW, FOR EXAMPLE, OPEN RECORDS ACT JUST HAS A RANDOM SECTION THAT SAYS THE UNAUTHORIZED RELEASE OF A CITY'S CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION.
WELL, IF IT'S CONFIDENTIAL, BECAUSE WHAT IT COMES OUT OF THE CITY ATTORNEY'S MOUTH, OFTEN IF IT'S ABOUT A DISPUTE, UM, IF IT'S ABOUT, UH, CERTAIN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, REAL ESTATE TRANSACTIONS, THOSE SORTS OF THINGS, UM, YOU HAVE A PROVISION IN YOUR CODE OF ETHICS IN PORT ARTHUR THAT SAYS, LEAKING CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION IS UNETHICAL.
WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT MORE WHEN WE GET TO THAT SEGMENT.
UM, AND SO WHAT I ASK AND URGE OF CITY COUNCILS IS IF YOU'RE GOING TO PARTICIPATE IN EXECUTIVE SESSION, YOU SHOULD TREAT IT LIKE IT'S CONFIDENTIAL.
AND IF YOU DON'T, DON'T BE SURPRISED WHEN OTHERS DISREGARD IT.
ALSO, I'VE HAD CITY COUNCILS VOTE TO NEVER AGAIN HAVE AN EXECUTIVE SESSION BECAUSE TOO MANY PEOPLE WERE LEAKING WHAT WAS DONE BEHIND CLOSED DOORS.
I THINK THAT ROBS THE CITY COUNCIL OF A VERY VALUABLE TOOL.
AND SO THE LAW ON EXECUTIVE SESSION CONFIDENTIALITY IS NOT AS CLEAR AS WE WOULD LIKE IT TO BE, WHICH IS WHY IT'S HARD FOR ME TO GIVE YOU A CLEAR ANSWER.
BUT I TEND TO TREAT THOSE CONVERSATIONS AS CONFIDENTIAL AND ASK EVERYBODY ELSE TO DO SO.
ALSO HAVE OTHER CITIES, UM, TAKEN ACTION ON THINGS THAT ARE CONSIDERED CONFIDENTIAL, UM, COMING OUT OF EXECUTIVE SESSION SUCH AS A CERTAIN RESOLUTION OR A CERTAIN ORDINANCE ON HOW THEY WILL HANDLE WHAT IS DEEMED CONFIDENTIAL THAT COMES OUT OF EXECUTIVE SESSION.
THERE ARE SOME CITIES IN TEXAS THAT HAVE PUT IT IN THEIR CODE OF ETHICS THAT DISCLOSING WHAT WAS DISCUSSED IN EXECUTIVE SESSION IS A VIOLATION OF THEIR ETHICS CODE.
AND SOME CITIES HAVE ETHICS CODES THAT HAVE CIVIL PENALTIES AND THAT SORT OF STUFF IN IT.
THAT'S HOW THEY'VE, THEY'VE HANDLED IT.
OKAY, UH, POLLING, WE HAVE A EXECUTIVE SESSION.
THE CHAIRMAN SAY, WELL, WHAT'S YOUR PREFERENCE? POLLING? WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO? I DON'T WHAT I, WHAT I WOULD, WHAT I WOULD ENCOURAGE COUNSEL TO DO AN EXECUTIVE SESSION IS NOT CALL FOR A RAISING OF HANDS.
UH, I, I WOULD DISCOURAGE THAT.
INSTEAD, I, I READ THE ROOM ALL THE TIME.
UH, I'LL HAVE COUNCIL DEAN OF EXECUTIVE SESSION SAY, DO WE NEED TO GO OUTSIDE AND VOTE ON THIS? NOPE, I'M NOT A MORON.
AND SO WHAT I'M SHARING WITH YOU IS A PREFERENCE AND A STYLE THAT I'VE DEVELOPED OVER YEARS OF PRACTICE.
OTHER OTHERS MAY HAVE A DIFFERENT ONE.
UM, BUT GETTING A SENSE OF WHERE THE COUNCIL IS IN EXECUTIVE SESSIONS FINE.
I THINK TAKING A POLL CAN BE LEGAL IN EXECUTIVE SESSION AS LONG AS THAT'S NOT THE FINAL ACTION.
IF, IF POLLING OR GETTING A SENSE IN EXECUTIVE SESSION IS ONLY GONNA BE USED FOR, SAY, I'M NOT GONNA GO WASTE CITY COUNCIL TIME OR STAFF RESOURCES TO GO WRITE AN ORDINANCE.
IF Y'ALL AREN'T INCLINED TO REGULATE THIS ACTIVITY, I'M NOT GONNA GO DRAW UP A PETITION SUING SOMEONE
BUT THEN I COME BACK LATER AND YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY VOTE ON THAT ORDINANCE, VOTE ON THAT CONTRACT, VOTE ON FILING THAT LAWSUIT, THEN I THINK IT'S OKAY.
BUT IF YOU'RE POLLING AN EXECUTIVE SESSION AND THAT'S THE ONLY ACTION THAT'S TAKEN, THAT WOULD BE A REASON FOR CONCERN.
MAYOR PRO TIM, WHEN YOU SAID, UM, I, I UNDERSTAND THE EXAMPLE OF TRYING TO READ THE ROOM IN ORDER FOR INSTRUCTION FOR THE CITY ATTORNEY OR CITY MANAGER, HOW ELSE WOULD THEY KNOW IF WE AREN'T GIVEN CLEAR DIRECTION? I, I THINK THE WHOLE SYSTEM IS, IS BASED ON A LOT OF TRUST.
AND, AND, AND, AND I'M, I I, I'M SORRY.
YOU, YOU, YOU CAN LAUGH, BUT THE, THE, AND I DON'T BLAME YOU.
I, I'VE DONE THIS ONE THING AND ONLY THIS ONE THING FOR 27 YEARS, AND I GET NEW LAWYERS AND LAW CLERKS THAT COME WORK FOR ME.
AND WHAT ARE THEY MOST STUNNED ABOUT? THAT THERE'S NO CLEAR LEGAL ANSWER ON THIS QUESTION OR THAT QUESTION OR THAT QUESTION.
THOSE ARE GOOD VALUES FOR A MUNICIPAL GOVERNMENT.
DO YOU HAVE TO VOTE ON EVERYTHING OUT
[01:20:01]
LOUD IN PUBLIC? NO.SOMETIMES IT'S AGAINST THE CITIZENS OF PORT ARTHUR'S INTERESTS FOR YOU TO DISCUSS EVERY SINGLE THING OUT LOUD.
SO THAT MEANS YOU PUT A LOT OF PRESSURE ON EXECUTIVE SESSION, BUT YET WE'RE TOLD WE CAN'T TAKE FINAL ACTION IN EXECUTIVE SESSION.
AND SO YOU JUST HAVE TO FIGURE OUT, UH, YOUR, YOUR RHYTHM.
AND I'VE GOT COUNCIL MEMBERS WHO WILL SIT ON THEIR HANDS AND BE QUIET THE ENTIRE EXECUTIVE SESSION, BUT EVERYBODY ELSE SEEMS TO BE IN FAVOR OF THIS CONTRACT.
SO I GO OUT AND SPEND A MONTH NEGOTIATING A CONTRACT WITH SOMEONE AND WE GET BACK TO COUNCIL.
IF YOU'RE OPPOSED, WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME? THEY DON'T, THEY DON'T OWE ME AN ANSWER.
THEY, THEY DON'T OWE ME ANYTHING.
AND, YOU KNOW, POLITICALLY THAT'S SOMEBODY ELSE'S PROBLEM.
AND SO I THINK EXECUTIVE SESSION IS A NICE TOOL, BUT IT'S, IT'S NOT A PERFECT TOOL.
OKAY, LET'S SEE WHERE ELSE WE ARE.
WE GOT EXECUTIVE SESSIONS COVERED.
Y'ALL UNDERSTAND WE CAN DO VIDEO CONFERENCING.
WE HAVE COUNCIL MEMBER, UH, BECKHAM PARTICIPATING.
NOW, THIS IS A TOOL THAT WE'VE HAD FOR A VERY LONG TIME.
VERY FEW CITIES USED IT UNTIL THE PANDEMIC AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN WE ALL BECAME EXPERTS IN IT.
YOU CAN HAVE VIDEO CONFERENCING, BUT THE RULES THAT APPLIED BEFORE THE PANDEMIC APPLY.
NOW, THE GOVERNOR'S EXECUTIVE ORDERS UNDER HIS EMERGENCY POWERS LESSENED THE RULES AND MADE THEM EASIER TO HAVE ZOOM MEETINGS, TEAMS AND OTHER PLATFORMS. WE'RE NOW BACK TO THE OLD RULES.
TO HAVE A, A MEETING, A PHYSICAL QUORUM MUST BE PRESENT IN ONE LOCATION.
THE PRESIDING OFFICER, THE MAYOR, MUST BE AT A LOCATION WHERE THE PUBLIC IS ALLOWED TO ATTEND.
AND EVERYONE SPEAKING AT THE MEETING NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO SEE AND HEAR EVERYBODY ELSE SPEAKING AT THE MEETING.
SO WHAT YOU THE THE, GO AHEAD.
THE CLARIFICATION I NEED ON THAT IS AS WE'RE HAVING THIS MEETING, YOU'RE SAYING THAT, UM, UM, COUNCIL, COUNCIL PERSON BECKHAM IS ON THIS MEETING NOW, IF WE ARE TAKING ACTION, DOES THAT PERSON NEED TO BE SEEN ON A SCREEN CONTINUALLY OR CAN THEY BE AS SHE IS NOW NOT BEING SEEN? I DIDN'T KNOW SHE WAS IN THIS MEETING, UH, HAVING GOTTEN HERE LATE.
ARE THEY, IS SHE, IS THAT PERSON WHO'S IN ATTENDANCE AT THE MEETING SUPPOSED TO BE SEEN AT ALL TIMES? I, I'M TOLD THAT THAT'S THE RULE.
WHEN WHEN I LOOK AT THE RULE, I, I THINK YOU COULD BE A LITTLE BIT MORE CONSERVATIVE WITH IT AND SAY WHEN THEY'RE SPEAKING, THEY NEED TO BE SEEN AND HEARD.
AND THEY NEED TO ALSO BE ABLE TO SEE AND HEAR EVERYONE ELSE WHO'S SPEAKING, WHICH DOESN'T MEAN THE ENTIRE ROOM.
BUT I, I HAVE NO IDEA HOW THE VIDEO CAMERAS ARE, ARE SET UP IN THIS ROOM.
AND AGAIN, I'LL SUGGEST THAT 1200 DIFFERENT CITIES ARE DOING IT DIFFERENT WAYS.
UM, BUT WHAT THE STATUTE SAYS IS EVERYONE SPEAKING NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO BE SEEN AND HEARD BY EVERYONE ELSE WHO'S SPEAKING AND, EXCUSE ME.
AND THIS WOULD OCCUR EVEN IF THE PERSON IS REMOTE, YOU KNOW, OR THEY YES, IT IS TIME TO VOTE, THEN THEY WOULD, THEY WOULD HAVE TO HAVE THEIR THEIR CAMERA ON YES.
YOU KNOW, AUDIO AND VIDEO, UH, YES.
UH, SO THAT THEY CAN CAST THEIR VOTE ON WHATEVER ITEM WE WOULD BE DEALING WITH.
IF THEY, THEY'RE PARTICIPATING FROM THAT LIKE THAT.
I, I'VE ATTENDED A MEETING WHERE IN IN DISTRICT THREE SEAT, THERE'S BEEN A IPAD BUNGEE COURTED TO THE HEADREST TO WHERE YOU SEE THEIR FACE ON THE CHAIR AND THE MICROPHONE NEXT TO THE IPAD.
UH, I DOUBT THAT THAT MEETS THE TECHNICAL REQUIREMENTS THAT THE TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF INFORMATION RESOURCES HAS GIVEN US FOR ZOOM MEETINGS.
I ALSO AM QUITE CONFIDENT NO ONE'S ENFORCING THAT.
BECAUSE IF YOU THINK ABOUT HOW MANY CITIES THERE ARE, MAYOR MENTIONED HOW MANY COUNTIES THERE ARE, IMAGINE HOW MANY SCHOOL DISTRICTS THERE ARE WATER DISTRICTS, MUDS EVERYTHING ELSE.
UH, IT'S HARD TO OVERCOME THE TECHNOLOGY AND, BUT THAT, THAT IS WHAT, WHAT THE RULE SAYS.
AND I'M SURE EVERY ORDINANCE EVER ADOPTED BY THIS CURRENT CONFIGURATION OF THE CITY COUNCIL OF PORT ARTHUR IS PERFECT.
UH, IF YOU'VE BEEN AROUND, YOU KNOW, THE LEGISLATION WE GET FROM AUSTIN IS NOT PERFECT.
SO A COUNCIL MEMBER CAN VOTE BY REMOTE IF WE'RE HAVING A VIDEO CONFERENCE, BUT THEY CANNOT VOTE AND DO NOT COUNT TOWARD A QUORUM IF IT'S ONLY A TELEPHONE CONFERENCE.
WELL, AT WHAT POINT DOES A VIDEO CONFERENCE BECOME A TELEPHONE CONFERENCE WHEN YOU LOSE YOUR VIDEO FEED? WE ALL KNOW THAT HAPPENS.
UH, TECHNOLOGY HAS NOT TAKEN CARE OF ALL OF OUR PROBLEMS, AND THE LAW HAS NOT CAUGHT UP TO TECHNOLOGY.
THERE WERE BILLS FILED THIS LAST SESSION THAT WOULD'VE MAKE IT EASIER
[01:25:01]
TO HAVE THESE VIRTUAL MEETINGS.AND SO THE LEGISLATURE IS AWARE OF THESE GLITCHES.
THEY JUST CHOSE NOT TO ADDRESS IT.
SO HERE WE ARE AND WE HAVE THESE VIDEO MEETINGS AND WE'RE GOING TO KEEP HAVING THEM.
SO THE REASON WHY I ASKED THAT QUESTION, UH, WAS BECAUSE THAT WAS MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE LAW, THAT THE PERSON WHO WAS IN ATTENDANCE OF THE MEETING HAD TO BE SEEN AT ALL TIMES.
AND IT WAS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT ONCE THAT CONNECTION WAS LOST, THAT PERSON WAS NO LONGER A PART OF THAT MEETING AND WOULD BE PROHIBITED FROM COMING BACK.
I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE SECOND PART.
I THINK THAT THEY CAN REESTABLISH A CONNECTION AND REJOIN A MEETING.
UM, AND IF THEY DO SO WITH THEIR FULL AUDIO VIDEO, THEN, THEN THEY COUNT TOWARD A QUORUM.
IF THEY DON'T, I THINK IT'S A PRACTICAL MATTER.
THEY COULD TRY PHONING INTO THE MEETING JUST SO THEY CAN HEAR IT AND THEY CAN BE HEARD, BUT THEY DON'T COUNT TO A QUORUM AND CAN'T VOTE AT THAT POINT BECAUSE THERE'S A DISCONNECT BETWEEN THE STATUTE ON VIDEO CONFERENCING AND THE STATUTE ON TELEPHONE CONFERENCING.
I'M HEARING TWO SEPARATE THINGS.
YOU STATED EARLIER THAT THE ZOOM MEETINGS WAS BECAUSE OF THE EMERGENCY, AND THAT WAS AN EMERGENCY EMERGENCY DEAL DID BY THE GOVERNOR OF THE STATE OF TEXAS, THAT YOU COULD HAVE THESE, UH, ZOOM MEETINGS NOW.
AND I ALSO HEARD THAT THE EMERGENCY IS OVER.
SO WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT ALLOWING, UH, ZOOM, YOU KNOW? SURE.
UH, SOMEONE THAT'S NOT HERE TO PARTICIPATE, PERHAPS, PERHAPS I MISSPOKE.
WE'VE HAD THE POWER TO DO VIDEO CONFERENCING UNDER THE CURRENT RULES FOR A DECADE.
AND EVERYONE STARTED DOING IT.
THE GOVERNOR RIGHTFULLY REALIZED SOME OF THESE TECHNICAL RULES ARE DIFFICULT, AND HE SUSPENDED THEM TEMPORARILY FOR TWO YEARS.
FOR EXAMPLE, YOU COULD HAVE A VIDEO CONFERENCE AND NOT ALLOW ANY CITIZENS IN THIS ROOM AT ALL DURING THE PANDEMIC.
YEAH, WE DID DO THAT, BUT WE CAN'T DO THAT NOW.
NO, BECAUSE EXCLUDING EVERYONE WAS ONLY PART OF THE GOVERNOR'S TEMPORARY ORDERS.
AND THERE WERE OTHER ASPECTS OF THIS THAT THAT LOOSENED UP REGARDING CITIZEN INPUT COMMENTS AND THAT SORT OF THING.
FOR EXAMPLE, WE COULD TAKE COMMENTS ONLINE, WE COULD TAKE COMMENTS OVER THE PHONE, WE COULD READ COMMENTS BY EMAIL, AND A LOT OF US DID THAT DURING THE PANDEMIC.
WELL, THOSE TEMPORARY RULES WENT AWAY.
SO WE'RE BACK TO THE OLD VIDEO RULES, WHICH ARE THE ONES I PUT UP ON THE SCREEN SO WE CAN STILL HAVE VIDEO CONFERENCE MEETINGS.
YOU CAN STILL ALLOW COUNCIL MEMBERS TO PARTICIPATE BY VIDEO.
THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE TO, THAT'S A CITY COUNCIL CHOICE.
OKAY? SO IT'S A LOCAL CHOICE TO ALLOW THEM TO, THAT'S CHOICE.
THAT'S UNTESTED AND UNTRIED ABOUT THE VOTING PART.
AND SO I PUT SOME THINGS ON THE SLIDES ABOUT THE ENFORCEMENT.
YES, THERE'S CRIMINAL JAIL TIME.
UM, WHAT'S THE BIGGEST PENALTY I SEE FOR VIOLATING THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT? A COURT CAN COME IN YEARS LATER AND VOID WHAT YOU DID.
AND THAT CAN GET VERY SERIOUS IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A CONTRACT, A ZONING DECISION.
I'M NOT PICKING ON OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN BLUE, BUT MY EXAMPLES ARE ALL OF THEY FIRE A CHIEF OF POLICE.
THEY VIOLATED THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT.
WHEN THEY DID THAT, THE CHIEF SUED FOR WRONGFUL TERMINATION AND THREW IN AN ALLEGATION OF AN OPEN MEETINGS VIOLATION.
AND TWO YEARS LATER, THE CHIEF GETS THEIR JOB BACK WITH BACK PAY, BACK BENEFITS AND RAISES, WHICH IS A PARTICULAR PROBLEM FOR THE NEW CHIEF OF POLICE.
SO NOW YOU HAVE TWO CHIEFS OF POLICE AND, AND TWO SETS OF PAYROLL.
AND SO THAT'S WHERE YOU SEE THESE THINGS BEING UNDONE.
INCREASINGLY, WHEN I SEE LAWSUITS AGAINST CITIES, I SEE CONTRACTORS, VENDORS, EMPLOYEES THROWING IN OPEN MEETINGS, VIOLATIONS, HOPING TO UNDO WHAT WAS DONE.
AND SO THAT'S THE BIGGEST NUMBER ONE REASON.
NO, NOBODY WANTS TO GO TO JAIL.
BUT ALSO WE DON'T WANT TO BOTHER TAKING ACTION.
AND TWO YEARS LATER, SOMEBODY COME BACK AND VOID THAT ACTION.
SO THAT'S THE OPEN MEETINGS PORTION.
THE NEXT PART THAT WE TRANSITION TO IS OPEN RECORDS.
THE, THE FLIP SIDE OF THAT OPEN GOVERNMENT COIN, AND THIS, THIS AFFECTS ALL OF YOU, YOUR STAFF, YOUR VOLUNTEERS ON YOUR BOARDS, YOUR CONSULTANTS, YOUR VENDORS.
IT WAS THE OPEN RECORDS ACT WHEN I GOT INVOLVED.
LET'S GO IF YOU DON'T, OH, WHEN YOU FINISH THAT, LET'S COME BACK TO
[01:30:01]
ENFORCEMENT.WHEN YOU GO AHEAD AND COMPLETE THAT.
NO, WE'LL GO BACK TO ENFORCEMENT.
LET'S, LET'S DEAL WITH THAT BEFORE WE MOVE ON.
TAKEN IN A MEETINGS, THE GOVERNING BODY, THE GOVERNING BODY HAS THE POWER TO APPOINT TO BOARDS, HAS THE POWER, THE GOVERNING BODY ESTABLISH A, UM, AN ORGANIZATION.
IT TRANSFERRED THAT CONTROL ON FILLING, UH, UH, FILLING THE, UH, THE STAFFING, THE STAFFING.
THAT BOARD, THEY PUT IT IN THE BYLAWS, PUT IT IN THE BYLAWS THAT EACH, EACH BOARD MEMBER, EACH COUNCIL MEMBER CAN, CAN APPOINT AND ALSO LIKE THE GOVERNING BODY, A GOVERNING BODY COULD HAVE HANDLED THIS APPOINT ALSO, REMOVE WITHOUT CAUSE TRANSFER THIS IN THE BYLAWS TO THE GOVERNING, TO EACH COUNCIL MEMBER.
GIVE EACH COUNCIL MEMBER AN APPOINTMENT, NOT SUBSTITUTE THE VOTE OF THE COUNCIL.
NOW, CAN THE GOVERNING BODY OVERRULE THAT WITHOUT DISABLING, WITHOUT DISABLING THAT BYLAWS WHEN THEY TRANSFERRED IT? AM I MAKING SENSE? I THINK I FOLLOWED YOU.
SO MY OVERALL ANSWER IS FOLLOW YOUR RULES.
AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE YOUR RULES, CHANGE YOUR RULES.
AND THAT'S JUST, THAT'S JUST A BROAD ANSWER THAT COVERS A WHOLE LOT OF TOPICS.
UM, THE LAW DOES NOT GET SPECIFIC ON HOW YOU APPOINT MOST BOARD MEMBERS OF MOST BOARDS.
UM, YOU KNOW, MAYBE THERE'S SOME LIMITS ON, ON HOW MANY COUNCIL MEMBERS CAN BE ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT OR, OR THAT SORT OF THING.
BUT HOW YOU APPOINT, WHETHER IT'S P AND Z OR LIBRARY BOARD, IS PRETTY MUCH LEFT UP TO EACH CITY COUNCIL TO DECIDE.
AND YOU DECIDE THAT BY ORDINANCE, BY SOME SORT OF POLICY YOU ADOPT, OR JUST BY TRADITION.
IF IF THE, IF THE GOVERNING BODY DO NOT LIKE WHAT THE INDIVIDUAL COUNCIL PERSON HAS DONE, CAN THEY OVERRIDE THAT WITHOUT DISABLING OR RESCINDING THAT ORDINANCE? SURE, SURE.
MAY, MAY, MAY, I MAY, MAY I PUT CLARITY TO THAT? PLEASE.
UH, IN, IN, IN THE TYPE OF CERTAIN TYPE OF SITUATION THAT THE, UH, COUNCIL PERSON MAY BE ALLUDING TO IS THAT THERE'S STATE LAW THAT OVERRIDES OR SUPERSEDES EVEN BYLAWS ON A LOCAL LEVEL.
AND THIS BODY ACTUALLY REFERRED TO STATE LAW, WHICH WOULD OVERRIDE WHATEVER LOCAL LAW OR PRACTICE WE HAD IN PLACE AND DID NOT ACCEPT A PARTICULAR PERSON TO BE APPOINTED TO A PARTICULAR BOARD.
BUT AGAIN, I I, I DON'T HAVE IT NOW.
ONE OF MY ATTORNEYS COULD PROBABLY GET IT.
WELL, THE STATE LAW WAS ACTUALLY USED TO GIVE THIS BODY AND IT'S, IT JUST WASN'T PRACTICED THE 1200 WAYS.
AGAIN, IT HAD NEVER BEEN PRACTICED, BUT NOT MEANING THAT IT COULD NEVER BE USED.
AND AT THIS PARTICULAR JUNCTURE, STATE LAW WAS USED AND THE PERSON WHO HAD BEEN NOMINATED BY A PARTICULAR COUNCIL PERSON WAS NOT ACCEPTED BY THE MAJORITY OF THE COUNCIL, WHICH RESULTED IN THAT PERSON NOT BEING PLACED ON THAT PARTICULAR BOARD.
WELL, ONE THING I'LL SAY, IF I CAN, LET ME CLARIFY.
LET'S GO BACK TO THE STATE LAW.
EACH COUNCIL MEMBER WAS GIVEN BY THE GOVERNING BODY.
PUT IN THE BYLAWS, EACH COUNCIL MEMBER WAS GIVEN AN APPOINTMENT, NOT A NOMINATION.
A NOMINATION IS NOT SUBJECT TO THE VOTE OR THE GOVERNING BODY.
NOW, SO MY, MY, BACK TO MY QUESTION.
THE GOVERNING BODY TRANSFERRED THE POWER TO AN INDIVIDUAL COUNCIL PERSON.
NOW BY ORDINANCE, CAN THE GOVERNING BODY, THIS IS ALLSTATE LAW OR NOT BYPASSING THE STATE LAW GOV, CAN THE GOVERNING BODY OVERRIDE THAT WITHOUT DISABLING THE ORDINANCE TO GET IT BACK TO SQUARE ONE? THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.
THIS THING ABOUT NOMINATION IS NOT TRUE.
[01:35:02]
I UNDERSTAND THAT.WHAT I WANNA SAY, PARDON ME? I ENJOY THE CONVERSATION WITH Y'ALL
I, I, I ENJOY CONVERSING WITH YOU A WHOLE LOT MORE THAN I DO JUST LECTURING YOU.
SO I, I, I WELCOME THE, THE BACK AND FORTH QUESTIONS FOR THE WHOLE TIME THAT I'M HERE.
BUT, BUT, BUT I, I NEED TO GET THIS OUT.
BECAUSE I'M, I'M YOUR YOURS UNTIL, I'M YOURS UNTIL TWO O'CLOCK, AND THEN I'M GOING HOME TO MY WIFE IN AUSTIN.
I, I'M HAPPY TO HAVE THE CONVERSATION, THE BACK AND FORTH.
IF IT'S INTERESTING TO YOU AND YOU FIND IT HELPFUL AND YOUR CITY ATTORNEY DOESN'T THROW SOMETHING AT ME, THEN I'M HAPPY TO DO THAT.
BUT, WELL, IT'S NOT EVEN THAT.
I, I, IT'S, IT'S THAT I'M HERE AS A TRAINER TALKING IN GENERAL TERMS ABOUT THE LAWS AS I UNDERSTAND IT AND APPLY IT TO, AT ANY GIVEN TIME.
MY LAW FIRM STATEWIDE HAS ABOUT 45 CLIENTS.
THAT'S WHAT I'M HERE TO TALK ABOUT.
YOU ARE SOMETIMES ASKING ME VERY SPECIFIC QUESTIONS ABOUT A PARTICULAR ISSUE YOU'VE DEALT WITH.
BUT I, I DON'T HAVE YOUR ORDINANCE IN FRONT OF ME.
I DON'T HAVE WHATEVER STATE LAW YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IN FRONT OF ME, AND I REALLY AM, AM UNQUALIFIED TO SECOND GUESS THIS GENTLEMAN OR, OR, OR YOUR CITY ATTORNEY WHO IS THE
AND SO I'LL, I'LL, I'LL PLAY THAT GAME.
IT'S JUST, IT'S HARD FOR ME TO BE HELPFUL.
UH, A WOULD YOU MIND FOR, UH, IF WE COULD TAKE ABOUT 10, 10 MINUTE BREAK, AT LEAST OVER RIGHT NOW? I DEFER TO THE PRESIDING OFFICER IN MOST EVERY OCCASION.
I, I, I BELIEVE THAT EVERYONE ELSE CONCURS.
AND WE AT 1110, WE'LL, WE, WE'LL, WE'LL COME BACK.
UH, WE ARE READY TO BEGIN THE WORKSHOP AGAIN.
I THINK THERE'S FOUR OF US HERE.
IF WE, IF WE GOTTA DEAL WITH THE QUA, THE OTHERS TO COVER RIGHT BACK.
[II.6. Texas Public Information Act.]
ALRIGHTYY.PICK UP WHERE WE LEFT OFF UNDER THE OPEN GOVERNMENT SECTION, WHICH IS THE OPEN RECORDS ACT.
UM, IT'S NOW CALLED THE PUBLIC INFORMATION ACT.
ONCE UPON A TIME, IT USED TO DEAL WITH FILING CABINETS AND BINDERS AND REAMS OF PAPER.
IT'S ABOUT YOUR SMART WATCH, IT'S ABOUT YOUR PAD, IT'S ABOUT YOUR LAPTOP.
UH, WE'RE MAKING MORE DIGITAL INFORMATION THAN EVER BEFORE.
IT'S FLYING ALL AROUND US AND WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR IT.
NOT JUST ARCHIVING IT TO KEEP FOR FUTURE REFERENCE, BUT PROVIDING IT TO PEOPLE UPON REQUEST.
DOESN'T MATTER IF THE REQUESTERS ARE CITIZENS, RESIDENTS, VOTERS, UH, ANYONE FROM ANYWHERE CAN ASK FOR IT.
AND IF WE HAVE IT, WE HAVE A DUTY TO PROVIDE IT WITH VERY, VERY FEW EXCEPTIONS.
THE STATUTE'S INCREDIBLY BROAD.
IT COVERS DATA THAT WE CREATE, THAT WE PAY OTHERS TO CREATE FOR US, OR THAT PERHAPS WE DON'T EVEN NECESSARILY WANT.
BUT PEOPLE MUST GIVE US TO TRANSACT BUSINESS.
MAYBE THEY WANT A PERMIT FROM YOU, THEY WANT A CONTRACT FROM YOU.
THEREFORE, THEY TRUST US WITH THEIR DATA.
WE NOW OWN IT AND HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT.
UH, THE BIGGEST THING TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT ON THIS TOPIC IS THE ONE WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT.
EMAIL, EMAIL, EMAIL, TEXT MESSAGES, AND SOCIAL MEDIA.
I HAVE SEEN LITIGATORS THAT ARE EMPLOYMENT LAWYERS SAY THAT BEFORE YOU EVER KNOW THEY EXIST, THEY'RE GONNA USE SOME NAME, MAYBE IT'S THEIR SECRETARY'S NAME TO FILE, OPEN RECORDS REQUEST AND GET ALL OF YOUR EMAIL FIRST.
AND THEN THEY'RE GOING TO USE THAT TO BUILD THEIR ROADMAP FOR THE LITIGATION WHEN THEY SUE YOU.
AND THEN THEY'LL BE DEALING WITH US UNDER THE RULES OF DISCOVERY.
BUT BEFORE THEY GET INTO DISCOVERY, THEY'RE GONNA USE THE OPEN RECORDS ACT TO COME AFTER US.
AND SO WE HAVE TO THINK THAT WAY WHEN WE CREATE AND HANDLE ALL OF THIS DATA THAT WE HAVE.
I'VE REFERENCED THIS BEFORE, BUT I'M GONNA KEEP REPEATING THIS, THIS ISSUE OF, OF MY, GOSH, PERSONAL VERSUS PUBLIC DATA.
UH, IT'S POSSIBLE THAT YOU'VE GOT PRIVATE DEVICES, YOUR PERSONAL DEVICES, BUT IF YOU USE THEM TO CONDUCT PUBLIC BUSINESS, THEN THOSE DIGITAL BLIPS ARE SOMETHING WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH UNDER THE OPEN MEETINGS O OPEN RECORDS ACT.
AND SO IF YOU HAVE A CITY ISSUED CELL PHONE, WELL THAT'S EASY.
YOU KEEP IT SEPARATE FROM YOUR REGULAR CELL PHONE.
IF NOT, DO YOU HAVE MORE THAN ONE PHONE NUMBER ON YOUR PHONE? THAT'S A TECHNICAL ISSUE TO TALK TO YOUR IT DEPARTMENT ABOUT ARE, ARE YOU USING ANY PERSONAL DEVICES AT HOME IN YOUR, IN YOUR
BUT UNDERSTAND THAT THOSE RECORDS ARE THERE.
WHERE DOES IT GET COMPLICATED WHEN YOU START USING YOUR PERSONAL ACCOUNTS TO DEAL WITH CITY BUSINESS? FOR EXAMPLE, I ONCE REPRESENTED A CITY JUST WEST OF AUSTIN WHERE THE MAYOR NOT ONLY USED HIS CITY OF EMAIL ADDRESS, HE USED HIS OWN PERSONAL GMAIL ADDRESS TO CONDUCT BUSINESS.
[01:40:01]
AND COMES THE OPEN RECORDS REQUEST FROM A FORMER COUNTY JUDGE WHO'S NOW A LITIGATOR FOR THE NEWSPAPER INDUSTRY SAYING, I WANT ALL THE MAYOR'S EMAIL TO AND FROM, FROM ANY ACCOUNT.I'M LIKE, WHAT DO YOU MEAN ANY ACCOUNT? AND THAT'S WHEN WE FOUND OUT THE MAYOR WAS USING TWO DIFFERENT ACCOUNTS TO DO CITY BUSINESS.
IS THAT A DIFFICULTY? NOT USUALLY.
IN THIS CASE, THE MAYOR WAS IN EUROPE.
WHEN I TELL YOU, THE MAYOR HAD TO GIVE THE CITY MANAGER ACCESS TO A NEIGHBOR WHO COULD ACCESS THE MAYOR'S HOUSE SO THAT IT COULD GO INTO THE MAYOR'S HOUSE WITH THE MAYOR GONE AND SEARCH HIS PERSONAL COMPUTER AND HIS GUEST ROOM TO GET ALL OF HIS EMAIL.
DOES THAT SOUND PAINFUL? IT IS.
AND SO HOW DO YOU AVOID THAT? YOU'RE DISCIPLINED WITH THE MEANS YOU USE TO COMMUNICATE.
WHY? 'CAUSE YOU'RE HIDING THINGS.
NO, Y'ALL AREN'T HIDING ANYTHING.
JUST TO MAKE IT EASIER TO COMPLY, BECAUSE THE TIMELINES UNDER THE OPEN RECORDS ACT ARE PRETTY SHORT.
WE HAVE A VERY SMALL WINDOW TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS DATA.
AND SO IT'S HARDER FOR US TO RESPOND IN A TIMELY MANNER WHEN PEOPLE ARE USING MULTIPLE DIFFERENT DEVICES TO DEAL WITH THESE THINGS.
UM, I ONCE WALKED OUT OF AN EXECUTIVE, EXCUSE ME, IT WASN'T AN EXECUTIVE SESSION.
IT WAS A REGULAR COUNCILS MEETING.
I KNOW Y'ALL NEVER DO THAT HERE.
AND IT WAS A CONTROVERSIAL ZONING DECISION.
EVERYONE AGREED THAT THIS LOCAL BREWERY WAS A GOOD IDEA.
WHO DOESN'T LIKE MICRO BREWERIES? GOOD FOR TOURISM AND ALL OF THAT? THE NEIGHBORHOOD NEXT TO IT SAID, FINE.
UNTIL THE MICROBREWERY WANTED THE ZONING CHANGED TO ALSO ALLOW OUTDOOR EVENTS, CONCERTS, RALLIES, FUN RUNS.
NOW THE NEIGHBORHOOD NEXT DOOR WANTED NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
SO A VERY PAINFUL ZONING HEARING BEFORE CITY COUNCIL.
AND ULTIMATELY A SPLIT COUNCIL DENIED THE ZONING CHANGE.
SO THE MICROBREWERY DID NOT GET THEIR OUTDOOR LICENSE.
BEFORE WE WALK OUT INTO THE PARKING LOT, WE'RE IN THE FOYER.
YOU WOULD NEVER DO THIS TO VAL, MR. CITY ATTORNEY, WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO DO ABOUT THIS? WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO DO ABOUT THIS? LIKE, GOOD LORD, PUT MY GLASSES ON.
IT WAS THE OWNER OF THE BREWERY CHEWING OUT THE MAYOR PRO TEM FOR NOT FIGHTING HARDER FOR THE ZONING CHANGE.
WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO DO? TURN IT OFF.
BUT YOU HAVE NO DUTY TO TEXT WITH PEOPLE.
SO WHY ARE YOU DOING THAT? WHY? OH, BY THE WAY, THAT'S A PUBLIC DOCUMENT.
ARE YOU TAKING SCREENSHOTS OF ALL YOUR TEXTS OR ARE YOU GONNA HAND OVER YOUR PHONE TO IT AND HAVE THEM DOWNLOAD ALL YOUR TEXTS AND ASIDE, PUBLIC, PUBLIC, PUBLIC.
NO, THIS IS ABOUT YOUR GRANDKIDS BIRTHDAY PARTY.
WHY ARE YOU DOING IT? I DO NOT PRACTICE LAW BY TEXT.
AND IF I CAN SAY NO, Y'ALL CAN SAY NO.
BUT IF YOU'RE GOING TO DO IT, UNDERSTAND THOSE MESSAGES ARE GOING TO BE PUBLIC RECORDS AT SOME POINT.
I'VE HAD COUNCIL'S VOTE TO DO SOMETHING AND HERE COMES A POLITICAL PARTY.
WHY POLITICS? TEXAS LOCAL ELECTIONS ARE NON-PARTISAN.
THEY'RE STARTING TO FEEL PARTISAN SOME DAYS.
SO HERE COMES A POLITICAL PARTY WANTING THREE COUNCIL MEMBERS TEXT MESSAGES TO AND FROM EACH OTHER 'CAUSE THEY THINK THEY'VE BEEN VIOLATING THE WALKING QUORUM RULE.
IN THE END, NOTHING CAME OF IT, BUT IT WAS PAINFUL.
GIVING YOUR PHONE TO IT AND HAVING TO GO WITHOUT YOUR PHONE FOR A WHILE.
WHO WANTS THAT? OR SITTING THERE, SCREENSHOT, SCREENSHOT, SCREENSHOT, SCREENSHOT.
AND HAVING TO FORWARD THOSE THINGS ON.
SO IT'S NOT JUST THE, THE, THE LACK OF TRANSPARENCY.
IT'S THE, THE PRACTICAL MECHANICAL DIFFICULTY OF COMPLYING WITH THE LAW.
WHEN YOU'RE CREATING ALL THESE RECORDS EVERYWHERE ELSE.
I'VE HAD COUNCIL MEMBERS SAY, IF YOU WANNA CONTACT ME AS YOUR FRIEND, USE MY GMAIL ACCOUNT.
IF IT'S REGARDING THE CITY, USE MY CITY ACCOUNT.
I WILL NOT RESPOND TO THE OTHER, OR I WILL FORWARD IT TO MY CITY ACCOUNT AND USE IT THAT WAY.
IT REQUIRES US TO BE DISCIPLINED, WHICH IS NOT EASY, BUT, BUT THERE IS NO WAY TO DO THIS AND COMPLY WITH THE LAW AND AVOID A MESS UNLESS YOU, YOU HAVE THOSE CLEAR LINES.
CAN YOU SPEAK TO DELETING TEXT MESSAGES OR EMAILS THAT ARE OSTENSIBLY CITY RELATED BUSINESS? CERTAINLY.
THERE'S REALLY A THIRD PART OF THIS OPEN GOVERNMENT.
I JUST DON'T TALK ABOUT IT AS OFTEN.
IT'S CALLED RECORDS RETENTION.
WE HAVE A RECORDS RETENTION STATUTE IN TEXAS.
IT'S OVERSEEN BY THE TEXAS LIBRARY AND ARCHIVES COMMISSION, WHICH IF YOU CAN IMAGINE, LIBRARIANS ON STEROIDS.
THAT'S WHAT THAT STATE AGENCY IS.
WE HAVE A LOCAL RECORDS RETENTION SCHEDULE HERE IN PORT ARTHUR.
I'M SURE YOUR CITY SECRETARY WROTE IT, BUT HAD TO SUBMIT IT TO AUSTIN TO GET IT APPROVED.
IT IS AGAINST THE LAW TO SHRED, DELETE, THROW AWAY ANY DOCUMENTS COVERED BY THAT SCHEDULE UNLESS YOU DO SO, ACCORDING TO THE SCHEDULE, HOW LONG MUST WE KEEP STANDARD BUSINESS EMAILS? TWO YEARS.
[01:45:02]
SO IF Y'ALL ARE THROWING ME A PARTY THIS AFTERNOON, THAT'S NOT REALLY A CITY BUSINESS.YOU CAN DELETE THAT THE MOMENT YOU SEND IT.
THAT'S JUST SOME SOCIAL FUNCTION WE'RE DOING.
'CAUSE HEY, THAT'S A WHOLE LOT OF GREAT TRAINING THAT ALAN GAVE US TODAY.
THE REST OF IT, YOU GOTTA HOLD ONTO IT FOR TWO YEARS.
NOW, IF YOU'RE USING YOUR CITY ISSUED EMAIL ADDRESS, I'M SURE THAT GOES THROUGH SOME SERVER IN A DUNGEON BASEMENT SOMEWHERE AND IT KNOWS HOW TO SEARCH THAT AND GET IT.
THE HARD IS WHEN YOU'RE USING YOUR A OL ACCOUNT.
YES, YOU HEARD ME SAY IT A OL SOME PEOPLE STILL HAVE 'EM, THEY'RE STILL USING THEM.
BUT THAT MEANS IT DOESN'T KNOW WHERE THAT IS.
SO ARE YOU FORWARDING YOUR EMAIL OR EVERY TIME YOU EMAIL FROM YOUR A OL ACCOUNT, ARE YOU CCING THE CITY SECRETARY OR SOME OTHER EMAIL THAT THEY'VE GIVEN YOU? JUST SO IT GOES THROUGH OUR SERVERS SOMEDAY AND WE CAN ARCHIVE IT.
THE LAW IS IF YOU COMMUNICATIONS REGARDING CITY BUSINESS ARE MEANT TO BE KEPT.
AND I DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW LONG ROUTINE TEXT MESSAGES ARE SUPPOSED TO BE KEPT.
UM, PROBABLY TWO YEARS AND PEOPLE DON'T DO IT, WHICH IS WHY I DON'T TEXT 'EM.
I GET A TEXT FROM MY CITY MANAGER SOMETIME AND MY RESPONSE IS, CHECK YOUR EMAIL.
'CAUSE I'M GOING TO SWITCH, TOGGLE OVER FROM TEXT TO EMAIL BECAUSE THERE'S A RECORD OF THAT AND IT'S, IT'S JUST, IT'S EASIER.
SO PLEASE TRY TO DO THAT SORT OF THING.
UH, WE HAVE TO TREAT ALL RESPONSES FOR INFORMATION EQUALLY.
WE CAN'T PICK OUR FAVORITE REPORTER AND GIVE THEM DATA AND WITHHOLD IT FROM OTHERS.
UH, WE HAVE TO GIVE THEM DATA QUICKLY.
HOW QUICKLY MUST WE GIVE PEOPLE DATA? YOU'RE ALL LOOKING AT THE SCREEN AND GUESSING.
THE LEGISLATURE TOLD US WE HAVE TO GIVE IT TO 'EM PROMPTLY.
I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT PROMPTLY MEANS.
THE LEGISLATURE CAME BACK TWO YEARS LATER AND DEFINED PROMPTLY AS SOON AS POSSIBLE UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES.
SO IF YOU'VE GOT A COPY ON YOUR DESK, HAND IT TO THEM.
DON'T MAKE THEM WAIT 10 DAYS AS SOON AS PRACTICAL.
UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES ABOUT 10 DAYS DOES MEAN SOMETHING.
WHEN WE GET A REQUEST, WE HAVE 10 DAYS TO DO ONE OF THREE THINGS.
GIVE THEM THE DATA, TELL THEM WHEN WE'RE GOING TO GIVE THEM THE DATA, OR GO TO THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE AND ASK THE AG MUST WE GIVE THEM THE DATA.
SO 10 BUSINESS DAYS IS A VERY, VERY SHORT TIMELINE, WHICH IS WHY IF YOU'RE HOARDING INFORMATION ON YOUR PERSONAL PHONE OR AT HOME, YOU'RE MAKING YOUR CITY SECRETARY'S JOB JUST A LITTLE BIT MORE DIFFICULT.
WHEN DO YOU THINK I NORMALLY GET CONTACTED? DAY SEVEN, DAY NINE, DAY SEVEN, YOU KNOW, 7, 8, 9, WHICH DOESN'T REALLY GIMME A CHANCE TO DO MY BEST WORK.
SO YOU HAVE TO HAVE A VERY GOOD PROCESS FOR DEALING WITH THESE THINGS.
UM, THERE ARE LOTS OF EXCEPTIONS TO DISCLOSURE.
Y'ALL DON'T HAVE TIME FOR IT ANYWAY, BUT HERE ARE SOME OF THE MORE COMMON ONES.
WELL, HOW DO YOU KNOW IT'S CONFIDENTIAL PRIVILEGE? 'CAUSE I'VE STAMPED IT IN THE HEADER AND IN THE FOOTER AND IN THE WATERMARK THE FILE SAYS, SO I'VE TOLD YOU SO IN THE EMAIL THREE TIMES.
WHY? 'CAUSE I DON'T TRUST YOU.
NO, BUT IN CASE SOME OTHER LAWYER SOMEDAY IS LOOKING AT THIS STUFF AND I'M NOT IN THE ROOM, IT'S GONNA MAKE IT EASY FOR THEM TO UNDERSTAND.
THIS MIGHT BE SOMETHING WORTH FIGHTING ABOUT.
IF YOU'RE IN A LAWSUIT, YOU'RE IN LITIGATION, YOU'RE HAVING AN ISSUE WITH A FORMER EMPLOYEE, YOU'RE BUYING, SELLING REAL ESTATE, UH, YOU, YOU HAVE A DO NOT DISCLOSE AGREEMENT, A NON-DISCLOSURE AGREEMENT WITH SOMEONE WHO YOU'RE DOING ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT WITH, THAT MIGHT BE A REASON TO WITHHOLD IT.
I TOLD YOU, YOU CAN MEET BEHIND CLOSED DOORS TO TALK ABOUT SECURITY, BUT THERE REALLY IS NO OPEN RECORDS EXCEPTION FOR SECURITY OTHER THAN UTILITIES, WATER, SEWER, GAS, ELECTRIC.
AND SO YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT THOSE DATA TOO.
ANYTHING YOU COME ACROSS THAT DEALS WITH JUVENILES, VICTIMS OF CRIME, FINANCIAL INFORMATION, MEDICAL INFORMATION, BELLS AND WHISTLES SHOULD BE GOING OFF IN YOUR HEAD.
I'M NOT GOING TO DISCLOSE THIS UNTIL WE'VE GOTTEN AN OPINION FROM OUR CITY SECRETARY AND CITY ATTORNEY.
THIRD PARTY FINANCIAL DATA IS A REAL KICKER.
THE BIGGEST EXAMPLE I'VE SEEN OF THIS IS TRASH.
WELL, IF YOU HAVE AN EXCLUSIVE FRANCHISE WITH SOLID WASTE HAULERS, THEY ARE VERY COMPETITIVE.
AND A MULTIMILLION DOLLAR BUSINESS.
YOU GO TO TML WHO'S THROWING THE BIGGEST PARTIES AND HAVE THE BIGGEST BOOST AT TML TRASH HAULERS, THERE'S A REASON FOR THAT.
AND BOY, ONCE THEY DO A COMPETITIVE PROCESS AND LOSE, THEY WANT THEIR COMPETITORS' DATA.
NORMALLY OUR POSITION IS WE DON'T CARE, BUT WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAND OVER SOMEBODY ELSE'S COMPETITIVE DATA WITHOUT THE AG SAYING SO.
SO WE'RE VERY CAUTIOUS OF THAT.
ONE OF MY FAVORITE BULLETS IS, IS IS FAIRLY LOW KEY AGENCY MEMORANDA.
THE STA STATUTE CALLS IT AGENCY MEMORANDA.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN? NUMBER ONE? DRAFTS.
SO YOU WANT AN ORDINANCE FROM ME, A CONTRACT FROM ME, A PERSONNEL POLICY FROM ME.
YOU'RE GONNA GET IT SAYING DRAFT, DRAFT, DRAFT ALL OVER THE PLACE, WHICH GIVES
[01:50:01]
US A REASON NOT TO GIVE IT TO THE PUBLIC.AND TWO, YOU'RE READY TO GIVE IT TO THE PUBLIC.
THE OTHER THING THAT COVERS IS YOU ARE A LEGISLATIVE BODY.
AND IN TEXAS WE HAVE THE DELIBERATIVE PROCESS PRIVILEGE, WHICH MEANS YOU'RE ALLOWED TO HEAR FROM YOUR STAFF AND CONSULTANTS DISCREETLY BEFORE YOU MAKE A DECISION.
SO IF YOU'RE TRYING TO DECIDE ON A NEW ORDINANCE AND YOUR CITY MANAGER HAS WRITTEN YOU A MEMO AND YOUR CITY ATTORNEY HAS WRITTEN YOU A MEMO, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO HAND OVER THOSE DOCUMENTS TO THE PUBLIC UNTIL YOU VOTED ON WHETHER TO ADOPT THE ORDINANCE OR NOT.
AFTER YOU VOTE, CHANCES ARE THE CITY MANAGER'S MEMO IS GOING TO BE RELEASED IF SOMEBODY ASKS FOR IT.
BUT THE CITY ATTORNEY'S CONFIDENTIAL PRIVILEGE PROTECTION SURVIVES.
IT LASTS LONGER THAN JUST THE VOTING OF AN ORDINANCE.
AND SO WE TRY REALLY HARD TO HELP OUR CLIENTS PROTECT THEIR CONFIDENTIAL DATA BY LABELING THINGS AND REMINDING PEOPLE THAT WE DO HAVE ARGUMENTS.
MAYBE YOU WILL CHOOSE TO DISREGARD THAT AND RELEASE IT 'CAUSE YOU THINK IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO.
THAT'S A CHOICE CITY COUNCIL GETS TO MAKE.
I FEEL LIKE, YEAH, THIS SKIPPED OVER A SLIDE.
I WANTED TO POINT TO THIS ONE.
IT'S VERY RELEVANT, PARTICULARLY REGARDING THE ELECTRONIC DATA.
IT USED TO BE THAT THE ONLY PERSON THAT HAD TO RESPOND WAS THE CITY AND THE CITY'S REPRESENTED BY YOUR RECORDS CUSTODIAN, WHICH IS OFTEN YOUR CITY'S SECRETARY.
AND IF THE CITY'S SECRETARY SENDS YOU A MESSAGE SAYING, WE'VE RECEIVED AN OPEN RECORDS REQUEST, THIS PERSON'S LOOKING FOR A B, C.
IF YOU HAVE IT, GET IT TO ME BY FRIDAY.
AND IF YOU HAD IT, BUT YOU REFUSE TO GIVE IT TO YOUR CITY SECRETARY, THERE WAS NOTHING YOUR CITY SECRETARY COULD DO ABOUT IT.
IN FACT, THERE WAS NOTHING THAT THE COURTS OR THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OR THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY COULD DO ABOUT IT.
THEY COULD SUE THE CITY AND THE CITY GOES, WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO DO? I ASKED FOR IT AND I DON'T HAVE IT.
WE GOT A NEW PIECE OF LEGISLATION THAT SAYS IF YOU HAVE PUBLIC DATA AND YOU'RE A PUBLIC OFFICIAL AND YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED IT WHEN YOU WERE ASKED FOR IT, POOF, BY OPERATION OF LAW, YOU ARE NOW AUTOMATICALLY DEEMED TO BE A TEMPORARY CUSTODIAN OF PUBLIC RECORDS.
WHICH MEANS YOU CAN BE SUED BY YOUR OWN CITY OR BY THE STATE OF TEXAS IF YOU FAIL TO HAND OVER DATA.
THIS ALL COMES FROM A COUNTY COMMISSIONER NOT FAR FROM AUSTIN, WHO WAS TEXTING AND EMAILING WITH DEVELOPERS, CONTRACTORS, BUILDERS ON A PRIVATE CELL PHONE ARGUING, THAT'S MY DATA.
IT'S NOT YOURS, I'M NOT GOING TO GIVE IT.
AND THE LEGISLATION GOT CHANGED.
SO IF THE SAME THING WERE TO HAPPEN AGAIN, IT'D BE A VERY DIFFERENT RESULT.
IF YOU HEAR THERE'S AN OPEN RECORDS REQUEST AND YOU HAVE DATA, PLEASE RESPOND IN A TIMELY MANNER SO YOU CAN AVOID THIS WHOLE THING.
THE AGS OFFICE IS A STRANGE ENTITY.
IT'S THE TOP LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY FOR THE STATE.
IT POLICES US IN AREAS LIKE ENVIRONMENTAL UTILITIES, CRIMINAL JUSTICE ELECTIONS.
YET WE ALSO HAVE TO SEND THEM ALL OF OUR CONFIDENTIAL DATA.
IF WE WANT TO WITHHOLD IT FROM THE PUBLIC, THEY SWEAR THAT ONE OFFICE OF THE AGS OFFICE DOESN'T TALK TO OTHER OFFICES.
WE HAVE TO TRUST THAT THAT'S TRUE.
IF YOU REALLY LOVE OPEN RECORDS AND WANT TO LEARN MORE, THEY HAVE A WONDERFUL OPEN MEETINGS, OPEN RECORDS HANDBOOK THAT THEY PUBLISH.
AND I FIND IT TO BE A VERY USEFUL TOOL.
UH, WHEN IT COMES TO SENSITIVE DATA.
IT, I MEAN, I, MY MOST RIDICULOUS EXAMPLE COMES FROM 20 YEARS AGO, BUT I LOVE THIS EXAMPLE SO I CAN, I CAN SHARE IT.
UH, WIMBERLEY TEXAS IS A BEAUTIFUL PIECE OF GOD'S GREEN EARTH NOT FAR FROM AUSTIN AND SAN MARCUS.
IF YOU EVER GET A CHANCE TO TAKE A SMALL DETOUR, GO THROUGH WIMBERLEY, TEXAS, BLANCO RIVER, CYPRESS CREEK, HILLS TREES.
GROWING UP IN WEST TEXAS, I HAD NO IDEA THIS KIND OF THING EXISTED.
I WAS THE FIRST CITY ATTORNEY 'CAUSE THEY DIDN'T BECOME A CITY UNTIL 2000.
BIG PIECE OF PROPERTY ON TOP OF A HILL.
LOOKING OVER THE BEAUTIFUL VALLEY, A DOCTOR FROM HOUSTON HAD PURCHASED IT YEARS BEFORE TO BE HIS RETIREMENT HOUSE.
NOW IT'S TIME TO BUILD ON THIS RETIREMENT PIECE OF PROPERTY.
UH, AS THEIR CITY ATTORNEY, I WAS ADVISING THE CITY AND THE PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION.
WHAT DO YOU DO WITH YOUR NEW ADOPTED ZONING ORDINANCES AND THIS HOUSTON DOCTOR'S DREAM HOUSE? I PUT IT IN A MEMO.
THE MEMO HAD LAW FIRM LETTERHEAD.
IT SAID, ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRIVILEGE NOT FOR PUBLIC DISCLOSURE.
I SHOW UP FOR THE PUBLIC HEARING WHAT'S SITTING AT THE SIGN-IN TABLE NEXT TO THE AGENDAS, COPIES OF MY ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRIVILEGE MEMO.
WHAT WAS THE DOCTOR AND HIS LAWYER READING IN THE CORNER? COPIES OF MY ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRIVILEGE MEMO.
I DON'T KNOW WHO AT CITY HALL DID THAT.
BUT IT TOLD ME THAT I HAVE TO WORK REALLY, REALLY HARD TO HELP MY CLIENTS PROTECT THEIR CONFIDENTIAL, PRIVILEGED INFORMATION.
IF YOU TRULY ARE LOOKING OUT FOR THE INTERESTS OF YOUR TAXPAYERS, YOUR RESIDENTS, YOUR CITIZENS, YOUR VOTERS, YOU ARE IN A POSITION TO HELP SAFEGUARD THAT INFORMATION.
[01:55:01]
STAFF TO BEND OVER BACKWARDS TO MAKE IT REALLY, REALLY HARD.SOME PEOPLE HAVE SAID THEY GET A MEMO FROM ME LIKE ALAN.
IT JUST DOESN'T LOOK VERY PROFESSIONAL.
WHY? 'CAUSE I USED YELLOW AND RED AND BLUE AND PURPLE.
DON'T LEAVE IT LAYING ON THE COPIER.
DON'T TAKE IT HOME FOR YOUR SPOUSE TO SEE.
DON'T GO FORWARDING IT TO THE CHAIRPERSON OF YOUR POLITICAL REELECTION CAMPAIGN.
IT IS A CONFIDENTIAL DOCUMENT AND I NEED TO BE ABLE TO TRUST WHEN I SEND IT TO YOU.
IN THE END, CLIENTS DO WHAT CLIENTS ARE GOING TO DO.
SO WITH OPEN RECORDS, THERE'S, THERE'S CIVIL PENALTIES FOR NOT PROVIDING DATA.
THERE'S CRIMINAL PENALTIES FOR NOT PROVIDING DATA.
NORMALLY IT'S, IT'S PRETTY, UH, IT'S A PRETTY BAD SCENARIO.
BEFORE YOU GET DRAGGED INTO COURT ON OPEN RECORDS, IT'S, YOU GOT THE REQUEST, YOU DID NOTHING.
YOU GOT THE REQUEST, YOU DID NOTHING.
THE REQUESTER CONTACTS THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE.
THEY TELL YOU TO PROVIDE THE DATA.
THEN THE AG CONTACTS THE LOCAL COUNTY ATTORNEY AND THEY PROSECUTE YOU FOR NOT PROVIDING DATA.
UH, YOU DON'T SEE THOSE PROSECUTIONS AS OFTEN AS YOU SEE THE PROSECUTIONS UNDER OPEN MEETINGS.
AND SO WE'RE AT THE END OF THE OPEN GOVERNMENT SEGMENT.
IT TOOK US A WHILE TO GET HERE, BUT I'M HAPPY FOR THE JOURNEY.
I'LL REMIND YOU OF THE SIX THINGS I'M HOPING YOU DON'T FORGET.
I HOPE YOU ASSUME ALL DATA IS PUBLIC AND THEREFORE WE HAVE TO HAND IT OVER EVEN TO PEOPLE WHO WANT TO SUE US AND TAKE OUR MONEY.
THINK BEFORE YOU CREATE THE RECORD IN THE FIRST PLACE, THAT'LL MAKE IT EASIER FOR YOU AND THE CITY TO HANDLE IT APPROPRIATELY.
UH, PRIVATE DEVICES CAN HAVE PUBLIC DATA, AND SO BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU CREATE AND WHERE YOU STORE IT.
'CAUSE ULTIMATELY, YOU AND THE CITY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THOSE THINGS.
YOU NEVER KNOW WHO'S BEEN BLIND, COPIED OR CC'D, AND THEREFORE THEY KNOW THE RECORD EXISTS AND YOU'RE NOT PROVIDING IT.
UH, BEWARE OF EMAILS, TEXTS, AND SOCIAL MEDIA.
THOSE ARE FANTASTIC TOOLS FOR GOVERNANCE.
BUT THEY ALSO CAN BE LANDMINES.
YOU DON'T WANNA STEP ON INADVERTENTLY ASSUME ALL GATHERINGS WHERE THERE'S A QUORUM IS A MEETING.
MAYBE YOU'RE GOING TO A MOVIE.
MAYBE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE DALLAS COWBOYS AND THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT DOES NOT APPLY.
BUT IF YOU CAN COUNT TO A QUORUM, THERE'S A REASON FOR YOU TO AT LEAST BE CURIOUS AND ASK SOME QUESTIONS AND BE CAREFUL ABOUT THE NEW WALKING QUORUM RULE.
EVERYONE THINKS THEY KNOW WHAT THE WALKING QUORUM IS.
NOW YOU GUYS ARE ACTUALLY EXPERTS AND YOU'VE GOT THE POWERPOINT TO REMIND YOU OF WHEN IT HAPPENS.
UH, UNFORTUNATELY, IT MEANS MOST OF YOUR CONVERSATIONS WITH YOUR COLLEAGUES HAVE TO TAKE PLACE AT OPEN PUBLIC MEETINGS.
CORPORATE BOARDS OF DIRECTORS DON'T HAVE TO DO THAT.
NONPROFIT BOARDS OF DIRECTORS DON'T HAVE TO DO THAT, BUT YOU HAVE TO DO THAT.
AND SO THAT'S IT FOR THE OPEN MEETINGS, OPEN REC RECORD SEGMENT.
UM, ANY QUESTIONS THAT WE DIDN'T GET TO THAT YOU WANTED TO? YEAH, PLEASE.
UM, NOTES BEING TAKEN DURING MEETINGS.
THAT NEVER HAPPENS HERE, RIGHT? NO.
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT BEAUMONT OR SOMEWHERE ELSE? YEAH.
NOT, NOT, NOT IN, NOT IN PORT ARTHUR, OF COURSE.
WHAT'S YOUR QUESTIONS? UM, CAN THOSE BE, UM, SUBPOENAED? CAN THOSE BE, UM, I GUESS THAT'S THE, THAT'S ABOUT THAT.
THAT'S THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF THAT QUESTION.
THOSE, ALL THAT INFORMATION YOU JUST DESCRIBED CAN BE SUBPOENAED IN SOME SORT OF LEGAL DISPUTE.
THEY CAN BE THE SUBJECT OF AN OPEN RECORDS REQUEST.
YOU KNOW, I REMEMBER ONE AGAIN, I, I LOVE PICKET ON MY FORMER HOMETOWN OF EL PASO, THE COUNCIL MEMBER WHOSE BROWSER HISTORY WAS REQUESTED.
WHY? 'CAUSE HE WAS CHECKING OUT SOME SPORTS SCORES DURING A CITY COUNCIL MEETING,
AND IN THE END, HE DID EXACTLY WHAT I WOULD HOPE HE WOULD DO.
I DID OUR MEETING STARTED AT 8:00 AM AND GO TO MIDNIGHT.
I NEEDED TO TAKE A MENTAL HEALTH BREAK.
AND SO I TOGGLED OVER AND I LOOKED TO SEE HOW, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER THE MAVS WERE DOING THERE WAS, HE OWNED IT.
AND SO I, I TAKE THAT AS A LESSON FOR Y'ALL.
IF YOU'RE GOING TO PASS NOTES, BE PREPARED.
IF YOU'RE GOING TO TEXT, BE PREPARED.
I ONCE GOT BROUGHT INTO SPECIAL COUNSEL FOR A CITY UP IN DFW THAT WAS WRITING AN ETHICS ORDINANCE.
AND THE WHOLE TIME I'M BEING PAID TO DRIVE FROM AUSTIN TO DENTON TO HELP THEM WRITE AN ORDINANCE LIVE BY THE COUNCIL COUNCIL MEMBER SITTING RIGHT NEXT TO ME ASKING ME QUESTIONS THAT PEOPLE ARE TEXTING HER ON HER IPAD.
AND I ASKED ABOUT LATER, LIKE, WHAT IS THE DEAL WITH COUNCIL MEMBER HERE DOING THIS? OH, SHE DOES IT ALL THE TIME.
HER CONSTITUENTS, HER POLITICAL GROUP WAS TEXTING HER QUESTIONS LIKE, Y'ALL KNOW THAT'S PUBLIC INFORMATION, RIGHT? YEAH.
BUT SHE WOULDN'T HAND IT OVER OPEN RECORDS REQUEST AFTER OPEN.
SHE WOULD NOT HAND OVER THOSE TEXTS THAT SHE WAS GETTING DURING MEETINGS.
BUT I JUST TOLD YOU ALL THE LAW CHANGED.
[02:00:01]
SO AS OF 2019, SHE CAN BE SUED ON HER OWN, PAY HER OWN LEGAL DEFENSES TO DEFEND HERSELF.'CAUSE SHE REFUSES TO HAND OVER OPEN RECORDS.
I'M HERE TO SAY IT'S A BAD IDEA.
AND, AND, AND YOU NEED TO TALK TO YOUR FRIENDS, FAMILY AND SUPPORTERS AND SAY, YOU WANNA TALK TO ME ABOUT AGENDA ITEM NUMBER EIGHT? LET'S GET TOGETHER BEFORE THE MEETING.
BUT, BUT FEEDING ME INFORMATION DURING THE MEETING IS, IS RISKY.
AND, AND IT MIGHT BE EMBARRASSING.
AND I PASS NOTES DURING A MEETING.
AND SO IF I HAVE TO DO SOMETHING, I GOT MY LITTLE LEGAL PAD, LITTLE TINY PAD ALLEN ATTORNEY AT LAW.
MAYOR, YOU MAY WANT TO ASK THIS.
AND I GO AND GIVE IT TO THE MAYOR DURING THE MEETING.
WHY? IF SOMEONE WANTS THAT, WE'LL FIGHT ABOUT IT.
BUT IT SAYS ALLEN ATTORNEY PRE-PRINTED ON THE DARN THINGS.
AND THAT'S GONNA BE MY ARGUMENT.
YOU HAVE TO THINK AHEAD THAT WAY.
OR JUST BE PREPARED TO HAVE IT ALL COME OUT IN THE OPEN.
MAYOR PORTER, DID YOU HAVE A QUESTION? NO.
WHEN, WHEN THE ELECTED OFFICIALS GET OUTSIDE OF THEIR CAPACITY AND THEY END UP WITH A LAWSUIT AND THEY'RE OUTSIDE OF THEIR CAPACITY AS A ELECTED OFFICIAL, WHO PAYS THE BILL? WHO, WHO, WHO FINANCED THE LAW? UH, WHO FINANCED THE, UH, THE LAWYER OR WHO OR WHO PAID THAT LEGAL BILL? WE HAVE, WE HAVE THE TAX BILLS.
THERE'S NOBODY HERE ELSE YOU WANT.
DO WE QUIT AT NOON? TAKE A BREAK AT NOON.
SO DO YOU WANNA PUT UP THE IMMUNITY SLIDE? FRANCISCO, CAN YOU DO THAT FOR ME? BECAUSE THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I WAS THINKING.
THIS ONE'S ABOUT 30 MINUTES LONG.
AND I'LL ANSWER YOUR QUESTION AND GET FRANCISCO TO BRING UP THE IMMUNITY POWERPOINT.
'CAUSE IT'S, IT'S A SHORT ONE.
UM, IF YOU ARE SUED FOR WHAT YOU DID AS A CITY, UM, THEN THE CITY IS GOING TO DEFEND YOU.
AND I BELIEVE Y'ALL HAVE TML RISK POOL COVERAGE.
SO THE TEXAS MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, INTER GOVERNMENTAL RISK POOL IS BASICALLY YOUR INSURANCE COMPANY.
THEY PICK A LAWYER, THEY PAY FOR THOSE LEGAL FEES.
IF AT SOME POINT IT'S DETERMINED THAT WHAT YOU DID WAS OUTSIDE THE ROLE OF A COUNSEL MEMBER, MM-HMM,
AND YOU'RE ON YOUR OWN TO HIRE YOUR OWN LAWYER AND PAY FOR YOUR OWN LEGAL FEES.
'CAUSE SOMETIMES WE GET SUED FOR FOUR OR FIVE OR SIX DIFFERENT THINGS.
AND TML WILL GO, WELL, I THINK WHAT YOU DID OVER HERE WAS PERSONAL ON THAT ONE.
YOU WERE OUTSIDE THE ROLE WHEN YOU DID IT, BUT YOU WERE IN YOUR OFFICIAL ROLE ON THESE OTHER FOUR.
SO WE'RE JUST GONNA COVER THE WHOLE THING.
BUT THAT'S A TML COVERAGE DECISION THAT EVEN YOUR CITY ATTORNEY CAN'T ADVISE YOU ON.
ONLY TML CAN ADVISE YOU ON WHAT THEY COVER AND DON'T COVER.
UH, ONE OF MY FAVORITE EXAMPLES THAT I, I WILL, I WILL SHARE, IT'S A SLIDE THAT'S COMING UP, BUT I'LL, I'LL BRING IT UP.
NOW TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, I WAS A LOWLY LAW CLERK FOR THE CITY OF GARLAND, TEXAS BACK WHEN I WAS IN SCHOOL.
THIS OPINION CAME DOWN WHERE THERE'D BEEN AN A, A KMART IN HIGHLAND PARK AREA.
BUT DALLAS, IT WAS IN CITY OF DALLAS, THE CITY LIMITS, BUT NEAR HIGHLAND PARK, SMU, IF YOU KNOW DALLAS HIGHLAND PARK'S A VERY NICE PLACE YOU EVER BEEN THERE? IT IS A VERY NICE PLACE.
OLD ABANDONED KMART RIGHT ACROSS THE HIGHWAY, SAT THERE FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER UNTIL SOME COMPANY I NEVER HEARD OF BOUGHT IT TO BUILD SOMETHING.
THEY CAME IN AND FOLLOWED FOR THEIR SITE PLAN AND THEIR PERMITS.
AND FOR WHATEVER REASON, THIS WENT TO CITY COUNCIL.
AND, AND THERE'S PICTURES OF THE MAYOR AT THE TIME POSING WITH THIS COMPANY GOING, THANK GOODNESS YOU'RE COMING TO TAF AND TAKE THIS OLD EMPTY KMART AWAY AND PUT SOMETHING NICE AND NEW FOR THE COMMUNITY UNTIL THE FOLKS OF HIGHLAND PARK AND THE SURROUNDING AREA WENT NUTS.
KEEP THIS OUT OF OUR COMMUNITY.
YOU KIND OF, PEOPLE COME HERE.
YOU WHAT KIND OF TRAFFIC? COME HERE.
SO, WENT TO THE CITY COUNCIL AND AN ASSISTANT CITY ATTORNEY.
LIKE WHY DID THE CITY ATTORNEY SIGN THIS? THAT'S KIND OF CHICKEN.
I WAS, THE ASSISTANT CITY ATTORNEY WROTE A MEMO SAYING, DEAR COUNSEL, THIS SITE PLAN MEETS ALL OF OUR ORDINANCES.
THERE IS NO DISCRETION IN APPROVING THIS.
YOU HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO APPROVE THIS.
RIGHT? WELL, THIS MEMO WAS GIVEN TO THE COUNCIL.
WHAT HAPPENED? A DIVIDED COUNCIL DENIED THE PERMIT.
EVEN THOUGH THEIR CITY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE SAID, YOU GOT NO CHOICE.
AND THE COUNCIL MEMBERS WHO VOTED AGAINST THE PERMIT WERE FOUND TO BE INDIVIDUALLY LIABLE.
WHICH MEANS THEY HAD TO PAY THE DAMAGES THEMSELVES.
NOT THE CITY, NOT THE RISK POOL.
WHAT WAS THIS QUA, CRAZY WILD CORPORATION THAT TOOK OVER THAT OLD SHELL OF A KMART CINEMA?
[02:05:01]
MARK? Y'ALL EVER HEARD OF CINEMA MARK THEATERS EVENTUALLY PURCHASED BY MARK CUBAN AND ALL THAT? YEAH.THEY WERE THE BIGGEST, NICEST, CLEANEST MOVIE THEATERS I'D EVER SEEN.
NO ONE HAD HEARD OF THEM THEN.
BUT THAT CASE IS STILL GOOD LAW.
AND THAT'S AN EXAMPLE THAT I HOLD OUT TO SAY.
I KNOW SOMETIMES IT'S PAINFUL, BUT SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO SWALLOW THAT JAGGED PILL AND VOTE FOR SOMETHING YOU DON'T APPROVE OF.
BECAUSE UNDER THE LAW, THEY ARE ENTITLED TO IT.
AND YOU CAN TELL THE PUBLIC, I DON'T LIKE THIS.
I DON'T KNOW WHO'S AGAINST MOVIE THEATERS.
AND SO I'LL NEVER, I'LL NEVER FORGET THAT ONE.
SO YOU HAVE THIS VERY SHORT INTRO TO OFFICIAL LIABILITY AND IMMUNITY.
AND I WANT YOU TO UNDERSTAND SOME OF THESE BASIC CONCEPTS.
AND YOU CAN UNDERSTAND VERY BRIEFLY WHEN YOU CAN GET SUED AND WHAT CAPACITY, HOW, AND WHAT HAPPENS, THE PURPOSE OF BRINGING THIS FORWARD IS YOU WANT TO AVOID RISK FOR YOURSELVES.
BUT BECAUSE Y'ALL TOOK AN OATH, YOU WANNA AVOID RISK FOR THE PEOPLE OF PORT ARTHUR.
UH, CITY OFFICIALS HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF PROTECTION WHEN YOU'RE DOING EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE DOING RIGHT NOW, THE SAFEST THING YOU'LL EVER DO IN TERMS OF LIABILITY IS ATTEND A CITY COUNCIL MEETING AND SIT AT THE DAIS, LISTEN, TALK AND VOTE.
AND IT'S ONLY IN THOSE RARE, UH, EXCEPTIONS WHEN STAFF TELLS YOU, YOU HAVE NO CHOICE, THAT YOU REALLY INCUR LIABILITY.
BECAUSE IN TEXAS WE WANT GOVERNMENT TO FUNCTION.
AND SO WE HAVE DIFFERENT TYPES OF IMMUNITY THAT MAKES IT HARD TO SUE AND GET ANY MONEY.
AND SO WHEN YOU'RE SITTING AS A COUNCIL MEMBER AT A PROPERTY POSTED MEETING, YOU'VE GOT A GREAT DEAL OF PROTECTION.
WHEN YOU GO OFF THE RESERVATION AND GO OFF AND DO THINGS ON YOUR OWN, YOU'RE TAKING, YOU'RE LITERALLY TAKING STEPS AWAY FROM THE DAIS.
YOU ARE TAKING STEPS AWAY FROM THE PROTECTION THAT THE DAIS PROVIDES YOU.
IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE ALWAYS GONNA BE VULNERABLE, BUT IT GETS RISKIER THE FURTHER AWAY YOU GET FROM THE SEAT YOU'RE IN RIGHT NOW.
AND SO, IF YOU ARE A LONE WOLF OR YOU LIKE TO GO ROGUE, WELL KUDOS TO YOU.
BUT DON'T BE SURPRISED IF SOMETIMES YOUR NAME IS ON A LAWSUIT BECAUSE YOU WENT OUTSIDE THE SCOPE OF WHAT YOU ARE ELECTED TO DO.
SO THIS WHOLE THING IN TEXAS HAS AN HISTORIC BASIS.
UH, YOU KNOW THAT WE HAVE INFLUENCES HERE FROM FRANCE AND ENGLAND AND SPAIN, AND THEY BOTH OCCUPIED THIS TERRITORY.
AND WE GOT THEIR RULES ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.
THE CONCEPT BEING THE KING CAN DO NO WRONG.
BUT THE LEGAL PRINCIPLES SAY BASICALLY THAT IF WE HOLD GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABLE FOR EVERYTHING THE PEOPLE IN GOVERNMENT DO, THEN THE TAXPAYERS ARE GONNA CONSTANTLY BE PAYING OUT JUDGMENT AFTER JUDGMENT AFTER JUDGMENT.
SO IT'S NOT THAT THE LAW THINKS THAT ALL GOVERNMENT ACTORS ARE PERFECT, THEY JUST DON'T WANNA HAVE TO KEEP RAISING TAXES TO KEEP PAYING FOR JURY VERDICTS.
THAT REALLY IS HOW OUR LAW CAME TO EVOLVE HERE IN TEXAS.
AND SO IF YOU START OFF WITH THE GENERAL PREMISE THAT THE KING CAN DO NO WRONG, YOU START LOOKING FOR EXCEPTIONS.
AND THAT'S KIND OF HOW THE LAW IS ANYWAY, RIGHT? YOU GET A GENERAL RULE AND THEN YOU HAVE EXCEPTIONS.
SO WHAT IS LIABILITY? LIABILITY MEANS YOU'RE RESPONSIBLE.
YOU'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR SOMETHING YOU DID OR FAILED TO DO, AND THEREFORE YOU MUST DO SOMETHING ELSE.
STOP DOING SOMETHING OR WRITE A CHECK.
AND YOU MIGHT BE FOUND LIABLE.
THE CITY MIGHT BE FOUGHT LIABLE FOR WHAT YOU DO.
WHAT'S IMMUNITY? IT'S PROTECTION.
IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE NO CULPABILITY, IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG.
IT JUST MEANS YOU ARE PROTECTED FROM HAVING TO EITHER RESPOND TO THE SUIT, DO THE ACTION THEY WANT YOU TO DO, OR WRITE THAT CHECK.
UM, CLIENTS WILL OFTEN ASK ME, CITY ATTORNEY, IF WE FOLLOW YOUR ADVICE, DOES THIS MEAN WE WON'T GET SUED? AND I HAVE TO SHAKE MY HEAD AND SAY, I, I'M NOT THAT MAGICAL.
THERE'S NOTHING I CAN SAY OR DO.
THERE'S NOTHING AS GOOD AS YOUR CITY ATTORNEY IS.
SHE CAN'T DO A SINGLE THING TO STOP YOU FROM BEING SUED.
SO WHAT DO WE DO? WE TRY TO DO THE RIGHT THING SO AS TO AVOID LAWSUITS.
AND IF WE FIND OURSELVES IN THEM, GET OUT OF THEM QUICKLY, EASILY.
AND WITHOUT CAUSING A LOT OF GRIEF, STRESS, BAD PUBLIC RELATIONS AND TAXPAYER MONEY.
'CAUSE EVEN IF YOUR INSURANCE THROUGH THE RISK POOL SETTLES A CASE, IT DOESN'T MEAN IT DOESN'T COST YOU.
JUST LIKE WITH ANY INSURANCE POLICY, THERE'S A DEDUCTIBLE.
AND OH, BY THE WAY, YOUR PREMIUMS WILL GO UP OVER TIME.
SO IT FUNCTIONS VERY MUCH LIKE PRIVATE INSURANCE WILL.
[02:10:01]
AND SO DON'T THINK OF THAT AS THIS, UH, GREAT SHIELD THAT WILL FOREVER PROTECT PORT ARTHUR'S TREASURY.THAT'S NOT HOW, UM, HOW IT GOES.
WE'RE PROTECTED FROM LAWSUITS EXCEPT FOR CERTAIN TORTS.
AND SO YOU HAVE TO KIND OF UNDERSTAND WHAT A TORT IS.
AND IF YOU'RE NOT A LAWYER, PARALEGAL DIDN'T GO TO LAW SCHOOL.
SOME EXPLANATION CAN BE A LITTLE BIT HELPFUL.
IT'S A WRONGFUL ACT OR AN INFRINGEMENT ON A RIGHT OTHER THAN A CONTRACT THAT LEADS TO LIABILITY.
CONTRACT LIABILITY IS A DIFFERENT SOURCE OF AN OBLIGATION.
SO IF IT'S NOT CONTRACT, IT MIGHT BE TORT.
Y'ALL HAVE HEARD OF THESE THINGS? ASSAULT AND BATTERY DAMAGE, THE PERSONAL PROPERTY, INTENTIONAL INFLICTION OF EMOTIONAL DISTRESS.
SOMETIMES THERE IS A CRIMINAL VERSION OF THIS, BUT THE TORT IS THE CIVIL VERSION OF THAT.
MAYBE SOMEONE PUNCHED YOU A NEGLIGENT TORT, SOMEBODY ACCIDENTALLY HIT YOU.
AND OF COURSE THAT HAPPENS HERE ALL THE TIME.
I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT PORT ARTHUR, BUT CITIES, UH, OUR TRUCKS ARE CONSTANTLY HITTING PEOPLE.
YOU GOT PUBLIC WORKS, YOU'VE GOT PARKS IN SOME CITIES.
YOU'VE GOT WATER, YOU'VE GOT SEWER.
THAT MEANS YOU'VE GOT PEOPLE OUT THERE OPERATING EQUIPMENT.
'CAUSE SOMETIMES KNOCKED DOWN SOMEONE'S FENCE, HIT SOMEONE'S CAR.
I'VE SEEN CITY VEHICLES TAKE OUT PEOPLE'S ROOMS 'CAUSE THEY LOST CONTROL, WENT OFF THE ROAD INTO SOMEONE'S HOUSE.
UH, UTILITIES SOMETIMES CAUSE PROBLEMS. OF COURSE, WE HAVE LAW ENFORCEMENT, WE HAVE FIRE, WE HAVE EMS. ALL OF THOSE THINGS CAN BE THE SOURCE OF TORT LIABILITY.
UM, ONE OF, ONE OF THE, THE BEST AND SIMPLEST OVERSIMPLIFIED EXPLANATIONS, UH, UH, OF, OF THIS SORT OF THING, UM, I CAN THINK OF IS, IS WHEN YOU GO OFF AND DO YOUR OWN FACT FINDING OUTSIDE OF COUNCIL CHAMBERS, ARE YOU INCURRING TORTS BY INTERFERING WITH SOMEBODY ELSE'S CONTRACTS, THEIR RELATIONSHIPS, UM, DEFAMATION, LIABLE, SLANDER.
THOSE ARE TORTS THAT CAN BE BROUGHT AGAINST CITY OFFICIALS.
I I BRING OUT THAT ONE BECAUSE I LOVE SOCIAL MEDIA.
DURING THE BREAK, I DID NOT CHECK MY EMAIL.
WHY? I GOT CLIENTS ON MY EMAIL.
I DON'T, I DON'T EVEN LOOK AT A CLIENT EMAILS WHILE I'M HEARING PORT ARTHUR.
SO I TOOK A MOMENT AND LOOKED AT FACEBOOK.
WHY? 'CAUSE IT'S A DANG NASTY HABIT.
MAYBE IT'S LIKE SMOKING FOR SOME OF YOU.
I HATE IT BECAUSE THERE'S OPPORTUNITIES TO DEFAME PEOPLE AND COMMIT SLANDER.
THAT AND LIBEL THAT WEREN'T THERE JUST A FEW YEARS AGO.
AND WHY AM I SO FOCUSED ON IT? I RAISE YOUR HAND IF YOU'VE BEEN SUED FOR DEFAMATION.
I HAVE YOU HAVE THEORY COUNCIL GOT SUED.
OKAY? TML PULLED, PULLED THE, UH, INSURANCE PAID OUT.
THEY PAID PAID PEOPLE OFF OUTTA THE
AND, AND, AND WHEN I WAS SUED, IT WAS, IT WAS A POLICE FIRED, A POLICE CHIEF.
AND, AND THERE WAS A VERY SHORT MEMO SAYING WHY THE CHIEF WAS GETTING FIRED.
AND AND THE CHIEF SAID DURING THE MEETING, HE WAS GETTING FIRED.
THE MAYOR SAID, CITY ATTORNEY READ THE MEMO.
SO I KNOW IT WAS JUST THE FACTS.
THE FACTS ARE THIS, THIS, AND THIS.
THE MAYOR, THE CITY, AND I GOT SUED FOR DEFAMATION.
IT'S NOT FUN SEEING YOUR NAME ON A PLEADING FOR DEFAMATION.
ME AND THE MAYOR EARLY ON, THE, THE CITY ULTIMATELY SETTLED TO GAVE THE CHIEF SOME WALK-IN MONEY.
AND WHAT IF THE CITY, UH, INSURANCE DID NOT COVER ME.
NOW MY LAW FIRM'S INSURANCE IS GONNA COVER ME.
WHAT'S I GONNA DO TO MY RATES? RIGHT? SO THERE ARE REPERCUSSIONS.
AND SO I BRING IT UP TO SAY, I I I WE WORK FOR THE CITY, THEREFORE WE GET TO BE CRITICIZED NIGHT AND DAY.
UM, USING THE CITY'S POWER OR YOUR POWER TO CRITICIZE OTHER PEOPLE, OKAY? BE CAUTIOUS BECAUSE WHEN YOU DO SO, YOU MAY CROSS A LINE INTO DEFAMATION AT SOME POINT.
IF IT'S SHOWN THAT IT WAS UNTRUTHFUL, WHAT YOU SAID, YOU KNEW IT WAS UNTRUTHFUL, YOU DISREGARDED THE TRUTH BECAUSE YOU HAVE MALICE ILL WILL TOWARDS SOMEBODY.
AND SO I'VE SEEN SEVERAL OF THOSE LAWSUITS KICKED AROUND LATELY.
DON'T WANT THAT FOR PORT ARTHUR AGAIN.
AND THE FACT THAT PEOPLE HAVE SOCIAL MEDIA MAKES IT VERY EASY FOR THEM TO DO IT 24 7.
AND SO THAT'S SOMETHING YOU GOTTA BE CAUTIOUS OF.
AND DEPENDING ON THE FACTS, A-A-T-M-L OR A JUDGE MAY DECIDE YOU ARE OUTSIDE THE SCOPE OF BEING A, A CITY OFFICIAL WHEN YOU DID IT.
THEREFORE YOU'RE PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR IT.
WELL OWN IT AT THAT POINT AND AND BE PREPARED FOR IT.
COUNSELOR IS DEFAMATION AN INTENTIONAL
[02:15:01]
TORT THAT'S NOT ACTIONABLE UNDER THE TEXAS TORT CLAIMS ACT, SUCH THAT AN INDIVIDUAL WOULD BE LIABLE FOR THE REMARKS THAT WERE MADE RATHER THAN THE MUNICIPALITY.I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE SECOND PART.
OKAY? I'VE JUST LIVED THROUGH THE LAWSUITS WHERE WE NEVER WENT TO TRIAL.
THEY WERE UNABLE TO DISPOSE OF THE DEFAMATION CASES THROUGH THE PRETRIAL DIVERSIONS SUMMARY JUDGMENT AND THAT SORT OF THING.
AND ULTIMATELY, IN ALL THOSE CASES, IT WAS SETTLED.
WHICH IS, WHICH IS, WHICH IS A GOOD ADVICE TO GIVE YOU.
AND I'M NOT, I'M NOT A LITIGATOR.
UM, EVEN IF YOU DON'T GO TO TRIAL AND THERE'S NO JUDGMENT AGAINST YOU WHO'S GOT THE TIME, EFFORT, OR MONEY TO GO THROUGH THAT.
AND SO SOME OF THIS IS ABOUT RISK AVOIDANCE.
MAYOR PROTE, I'M CURRENTLY EXPERIENCING SOME DEFAMATION OF CHARACTER FROM ANOTHER COUNCIL MEMBER.
IT'S ON VIDEO, IT'S IN WRITING, IT'S SHARED ON PODCAST.
AND THIS DEFAMATION OF CHARACTER IS DIRECT TO MYSELF AND MY HUSBAND.
SO I'M ASKING HOW DO I OR NOT, NOT HOW DO I, BUT WOULD THE CITY BE LIABLE OR IN THAT CASE, OR IS AN INDIVIDUAL MAYOR? I THINK IT'D BE INAPPROPRIATE FOR ME TO, TO ADDRESS A SPECIFIC ISSUE LIKE THAT IN THIS PARTICULAR SETTING.
'CAUSE AGAIN, AS I, THIS IS JUST TRAINING MAYOR, THIS IS JUST TRAINING.
WE CAN'T GET INTO ANY TYPE OF SPECIFIC FOR ANY INDIVIDUAL.
LIKE YOU SAID, THIS IS JUST TRAINING.
SO, AND THEN WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IT, WE ARE TALKING, WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THINGS BETWEEN COUNCIL MEMBERS EITHER.
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, UH, WITH THE PUBLIC AND THINGS LIKE THAT.
BUT NO, WE CAN'T GET INTO THAT IN THIS FORM.
THIS IS JUST TRAINING ABOUT THE LAW IN GENERAL.
BUT WE ARE NOT ASKING ABOUT ANY SPECIFIC FACTUAL THINGS LIKE THAT.
'CAUSE HE'D BE GETTING AN LEGAL ADVICE AND THAT WOULDN'T BE APPROPRIATE.
SO WHAT FORM DO WE GET INTO IT? LAST TIME WHEN WE DIS WHEN THIS WAS BROUGHT UP DURING THE COUNCIL MEETING, IT WAS SAID THAT WE NEEDED TO HAVE A WORKSHOP ABOUT IT.
THIS WORKSHOP IS A TRAINING, UH, GENERALLY SPEAKING ABOUT ALL OF THE TOPICS, BUT IT'S NOT ABOUT A SPECIFIC FACTUAL INCIDENT.
SO FOR EXAMPLE, IN A SITUATION WHERE ONE MAY HAVE A DEFAM DEFAMATION ISSUE, THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING BETWEEN THOSE INDIVIDUALS AND THE COURTS.
WE CAN ONLY ADDRESS A FACTUAL SITUATION IN A, IF WE'VE BEEN SUED OR THE CITY ITSELF HAS DONE SOMETHING, BUT SOMETHING BETWEEN TWO INDIVIDUALS OUTSIDE THIS.
I THINK THAT'S WHAT HE'S SAYING.
YOU'RE, IF IF IT'S SOMETHING RELATED TO WHAT YOU DO ON THE DAYS, THE CITY'S INVOLVED AND THE CITY'S PROTECTED.
BUT WHAT PEOPLE ARE DOING OUTSIDE OF HERE BETWEEN ONE ANOTHER, THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT THE CITY'S INVOLVED IN.
UM, AND I MEAN, THIS WOULDN'T BE A SITUATION WHERE WE COULD TALK ABOUT ANY SPECIFIC INSTANCE OF CONDUCT WITH ANY PARTICULAR PERSONS.
WE JUST TALKING ABOUT THE LAW IN GENERAL AND PROCESSES IN GENERAL.
I MEAN, I'LL LET OUT CAPACITY.
IT DEPENDS ON WHAT CAPACITY IT WAS DONE IN, WAS MY UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT YOU JUST SAID.
I THINK CAPACITY'S GOING TO MATTER AND THOSE KIND OF SCENARIOS.
AND THAT'S, YOU KNOW, THE REASON I BRING THIS UP IS, IS I, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE ISSUE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, BUT YOU KNOW, I'VE GOT ANOTHER CITY THAT'S RIGHT NOW USING ITS INVESTIGATORY POWERS TO INVESTIGATE ALLEGATIONS AGAINST A COUNCIL MEMBER AND SOME OTHERS.
AND I'M, AND I'M REMINDING THEM THAT WHILE YOU HAVE, YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO INVESTIGATE THINGS.
THE FLIP SIDE IS YOU DON'T WANT TO BASH, YOU DON'T WANNA USE THE POWERS OF GOVERNMENT, GOVERNMENT RESOURCES, GOVERNMENT FUNDS TO ATTACK SOMEONE'S CHARACTER OR REPUTATION PUBLICLY, EVER.
BUT IF YOU ACTUALLY FIND THIS INVESTIGATION YIELDS SOMETHING, WHAT WE DO RELEASE PUBLICLY, WE NEED TO BE CAUTIOUS ABOUT.
'CAUSE IT WOULD BE IMPRUDENT TO BE CALLOUS AND CAVALIER AND CREATE LITIGATION FOR THE CITY.
AND SO IF AN INDIVIDUAL'S OFF DOING THINGS THAT SLANDER, LIABLE BOTH SUBSETS OF DEFAMATION, THEN THAT'S ON THEM.
BUT WHAT THE CITY DOES, AND THE CITY BEING A VEHICLE FOR IT, IS SOMETHING I URGE CITIES TO BE CAREFUL WITH.
AND THAT'S THE POINT OF ME BRINGING IT UP.
I'M GOING TO ASK THIS BEFORE WE GET TOO FAR AWAY FROM THE TOPIC.
AND, UH, YOU SAID THAT, UH, THE KMART EXAMPLE YOU USED WAS THE ONE THAT I REALLY WANTED TO GET INTO.
'CAUSE AS A COUNCIL MEMBER, I ALWAYS THOUGHT
[02:20:01]
THAT WE HAVE CAUSE AN ORDINANCE, BUT AT SOME TIME, YOU KNOW, WE HAD TO ALSO CONSIDER, UH, OUR CITIZENS BECAUSE, UH, THAT'S WHO WE REPRESENT.BUT IF I HEARD YOU CORRECT, IF I HEARD YOU CORRECT, YOU'RE SAID THAT NO MATTER HOW THE CITIZENS FEEL ABOUT IT, IF IT IS RIGHT AND IT MEETS THE CODES, WE MUST ENFORCE IT.
NOW THAT'S, I WANNA MAKE SURE I HEARD THAT CORRECTLY.
IF, IF YOU HAVE A CODE OF ORDINANCES, WHICH YOU DO MM-HMM,
AND IT PROVIDES STANDARDS AND A PROCEDURE.
AND IF THE CONCLUSION FOR ANY PARTICULAR ISSUE IS THAT IF A CITIZEN COMES IN AND FILES A, B, C, AND THEY GIVE YOU 1, 2, 3, THEY GET THEIR PERMIT, THEIR AUTHORIZATION, THEIR PLATT, WHATEVER, THEN WE NEED TO DO THAT.
AND ONE, ONE THING THAT, THAT AUDIENCES NEED TO REMEMBER IS WHILE WE ARE PRACTICING DEMOCRACY HERE, IT IT'S A, IT'S A REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY.
WELL, DOES THAT MEAN YOU CAN'T GIVE OVER YOUR LEGISLATIVE DISCRETION TO THE NEIGHBORS? YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO DO THAT.
AND THERE HAVE BEEN CITIES IN THE PAST THAT HAVE SAID, WELL, TO GET THIS ZONING APPROVED, THE NEIGHBORS MUST SIGN A PETITION APPROVING IT BY 90%.
YOU, YOU CAN'T DO, MAYBE IN NEW ENGLAND, YOU CAN HAVE EVERYBODY COME TO A PUBLIC HEARING AND RAISE YOUR HANDS.
AND IF THERE'S MORE HANDS UP THAN DOWN, YOU GET YOUR ZONING APPROVED.
TEXAS LAW DOES NOT ALLOW THAT.
AND SO THERE HAVE BEEN, THERE'S PLENTY OF LAWSUITS AND WE'RE ON THE TOPIC OF LAWSUITS.
CITIZENS STILL SUE FOR SUBSTANTIVE DUE PROCESS AND PROCEDURAL DUE PROCESS AS CONSTITUTIONAL CLAIMS WHEN A CITY DOES NOT FOLLOW ITS OWN CODE OF ORDINANCES.
AND SO IF YOU DON'T LIKE YOUR CODE OR YOUR CITIZENS HAVE CHANGED, DEMOGRAPHICS HAVE CHANGED, YOU NEED TO GO IN AND AMEND YOUR CODE, THEN DO THAT.
BUT WHENEVER CITIES ARE IGNORING THEIR OWN RULES, THEY'RE TAKING ON RISK.
AND, AND THIS BRIEF PRESENTATION IS DESIGNED TO HELP Y'ALL AVOID RISK.
WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT YOU SAID YOU HOPE I LEARN SOMETHING.
I TOLD YOU I WILL LEARN SOMETHING.
BECAUSE THAT IS SOMETHING THAT I, THAT I REALLY DIDN'T KNOW, IS THAT NO MATTER WHAT CITIZENS FEEL ABOUT IT, WE HAVE TO FOLLOW THAT CODE.
AND WHEN YOU USE THAT KMART EXAMPLE IS ONE THAT I COULD RELATE TO THAT HAPPENED HERE.
AND SOMETIME COUNCIL I'VE SEEN WHEREBY ZONING, EVERYBODY KIND OF FORGETS THE FACT THAT WE HAVE THESE CODES AND STUFF.
AND THAT'S DIFFERENT SITUATIONS.
BECAUSE IN YOUR PARTICULAR CASE, I'M QUITE SURE THEY DIDN'T REQUEST FOR A ZONING CHAIN 'CAUSE IT WAS ALREADY A ZONE COMMERCIAL.
BUT SOMETIME COUNCIL MAY GET CONFUSED WITH THE REQUEST FOR REZONING.
NOW THAT'S SOMETHING THAT IS NOT A GIVEN.
YOU'RE A HUNDRED PERCENT RIGHT.
UH, YOU SELDOM, AS CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS HAVE AS MUCH DISCRETION AS YOU DO WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ZONING.
YOU SELDOM WILL HAVE LESS DISCRETION THAN WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT PLATTS.
THOSE ARE TWO COMMON LAND USE APPROVALS AND THEY'RE POLAR OPPOSITES IN TERMS OF WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT.
AND SO TO ME, IT IT'S A VERY, IT'S A GOOD QUESTION FOR YOU TO ASK YOUR STAFF.
IF YOU'RE FACED WITH A DILEMMA AND THERE'S A SIZABLE AMOUNT OF CITIZEN INVOLVEMENT, YOU MAY WANT TO ASK YOUR STAFF THE QUESTION, DO WE HAVE DISCRETION ON THIS? DO WE HAVE A CHOICE? IF WE SAY NO, ARE WE INCURRING LIABILITY? THERE HAVE BEEN TIMES THAT I HAVE BEEN, AND I DON'T LIKE IT, BUT I'M ON THE HOT SEAT WHERE I'VE GOT A MAYOR WHO SAYS, CITY ATTORNEY, STAND UP AND LOOK AT ALL THE PITCHFORKS AND TORCHES IN THE AUDIENCE AND TELL THEM WHY WE HAVE NO CHOICE.
AND I'VE HAD TO DO IT BECAUSE AT THAT POINT, I BECOME THE SPOKESPERSON EXPLAINING THE LAW TO A GROUP OF CITIZENS.
THAT'S SOMETIMES THE WAY IT GOES.
AND SO THE POINT OF THE KMART CINEMA MARK STORY IS LISTEN TO YOUR STAFF WHEN THEY TELL YOU YOU DON'T HAVE A CHOICE.
WHEN YOU DO HAVE A CHOICE, WE'LL THEN USE YOUR BEST JUDGMENT.
BUT YOU'RE GONNA GET A HANDFUL OF BOTH OF THOSE KINDS OF SITUATIONS THE LONGER YOU SERVE.
WE, WE ARE GONNA TAKE A BREAK FOR ABOUT 30 MINUTES OR A, A 30 MINUTE, UH, LUNCH BREAK.
AND THEN WE'LL RESUME AT, UH, 1230.
YEAH, THAT, THAT'S GOOD WITH YOU BECAUSE YOU HERE TIL YOU RIGHT.
I I LISTENED TO THE PRESIDING OFFICER.
SO WE'LL, WE'LL COME BACK AT, AT AT 1230.
MAY I, I WANT TO SAY, OH, MAY,
[02:25:01]
ALAN, I'M GLAD YOU EMPHASIZED THAT POINT.YOU KNOW, BECAUSE SO OFTEN THIS HALL IS BEING FILLED BY ROB ROUSERS WHO COME WHEN STAFF GIVES THEIR PROFESSIONAL OPINION TO COUNSEL AS THE ORDINANCE, THE INTERPRETATION OF THE ORDINANCE IS CONCERNED, WHICH ARE 99%.
WE ARE JUST FORTUNATE THAT THE APPLICANTS HAVEN'T SUED US AS YET.
I I I WE ARE JUST FORTUNATE I'M THAT THE APPLICANT HAVEN'T TURNED THEIR OWN SU SUED US.
I, I'M ONLY A LAWYER, BUT LET ME TELL YOU, LET ME SAY THIS AGAIN.
AS A GUY WHO HAS SAT AT THE DIOCESE THROUGH LOTS OF MEETINGS IN MY LIFE, I WISH WE ALL DID BETTER AT COMMUNICATING SOONER.
AND YET MANY CLIENTS DON'T SPEND ENOUGH MONEY AND TIME DOING IT.
AND I'M PART OF THE PROBLEM IN, IN ONE COMMUNITY LAST MONTH WHERE SOMEHOW CITIZENS GOT THE NOTION THAT WE'RE CLOSING THE RODEO GROUNDS.
SOME CONSULTANT FROM SOMEWHERE ELSE RECOMMENDED.
THEY WERE TAKING AWAY THEIR RODEO.
SENIOR STAFF HAD NO INTENTION OF TAKING AWAY THE RODEO.
BUT THE PLAN ABOUT THE, THE CONSULTANT GAVE THEM, GOT LEAKED AND IT WAS ALL OVER THE PLACE.
AND THE MAYOR DID A GOOD JOB OF SAYING, HEY, Y'ALL UNDERSTAND? AND THEY WERE STILL ANGRY.
SO I WISH WE COULD HAVE GOTTEN AHEAD OF THAT STORY.
IT WAS A CONFLICT BETWEEN ZONING THAT THE STATE CITY WANTED BECAUSE THE PROPERTY OWNER WANTED IT.
THEY WERE ACCUSING IT OF BEING, HAVING RACIAL, ETHNIC, RELIGIOUS TONES.
BUT THEY WERE ACCUSING THAT TOOK A LIFE OF HIS OWN.
AND I'M SITTING THERE GOING, I'M WRITING MY STAFF GOING, I REALLY WISH THAT THE CHAIRMAN OF BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT WOULD'VE GIVEN ME 10 MINUTES AT THE BEGINNING OF THE HEARING TO TELL 'EM WHAT THE RULE WAS SO THEY WOULD UNDERSTAND WHERE WE'RE GOING.
AND COULD WE HAVE SAVED SOME OF THE HARD FEELINGS IN THE PUBLIC.
BUT THE REALITY IS WE DON'T OFTEN DO A VERY GOOD JOB OF DOING THAT.
THAT'S NOT THE WAY GOVERNMENT TENDS TO WORK.
I HAVEN'T BEEN TO YOUR MEETINGS IN MANY YEARS, SO I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT Y'ALL DO.
BUT THAT'S A NON-LAWYER LAW TAKEAWAY THAT SOMETIMES WE HAVE TO TRY TO BRIEF THEM UP FRONT.
BUT THEY, BY THE TIME THEY SHOW UP HERE, THEY'RE ALREADY ANGRY.
BRIEFLY, LET ME SAY RIGHT QUICK, 'CAUSE YOU'VE BEEN, YOU'VE BEEN TALKING AND I'VE BEEN LISTENING.
YOU'VE GIVEN GOOD INFORMATION, BUT YOU'VE SAID TWO THINGS NOW TWICE.
I WANT TO REALLY SEE WHAT YOUR WORD IS WORTH.
YOU HAVE SAID YOU DO WHAT THE PRESIDING OFFICER SAYS,
ASK HIM TO JUMP OFF THAT LEDGE OUT THERE.
I WANT TO FIND OUT IF I'M GONNA LISTEN TO ANYTHING ELSE HE GONNA SAY TODAY.
NO, IT, IT HAS, IT HAS TO BE WITHIN REASON.
IT HAS TO BE, NO, HE DID NOT SAY
OH, BECAUSE I TRUST THE COUNCIL TO CATCH ME WHEN I FALL.
IF THE KMAR SITUATION, HAD THE CITY SUSPENDED THE ORDINANCE, WOULD IT HAVE BEEN IN VIOLATION, HAD SUSPENDED THE ORDINANCE? IF THEY HAD SUSPENDED THE ORDINANCE, THEY COULD HAVE, THIS IS A QUESTIONABLE THING, BUT IF THEY HAD SUSPENDED THE ORDINANCE OR DISABLED THAT ORDINANCE, THEY COULD HAVE DONE WHAT THEY, WHAT THEY WANTED.
I, I'VE BEEN INVOLVED IN DOING CERTAIN TYPES OF, OF, OF SUSPENSIONS.
SOMETIMES THEY WORK, THE STATE'S MADE IT VERY DIFFICULT TO DO A MORATORIUM.
THAT WOULD BE THE MORE TRADITIONAL WAY OF DOING IT.
AND WE CAN'T CHANGE THE RULES ON THEM.
AND THAT'S, SO IT'S VERY HARD TO DO.
THE LEGISLATURE HAS SLANTED IT IN FAVOR OF THE PROPERTY OWNER.
IS THAT ALL RIGHT? OKAY, MAYOR COUNCIL, WE'RE BACK.
HOPEFULLY KEEP Y'ALL FROM FALLING ASLEEP AFTER THAT
[II.4. The Law As Applied To Government Social Media;]
HEAVY LUNCH.WE'RE GONNA LOOK AT SOCIAL MEDIA.
I'M NOT A GOOD EXPERT ON TELLING YOU THE SMARTEST WAYS TO BE ON SOCIAL MEDIA TO GET THE MOST EFFECT OUT OF IT.
INSTEAD I'M JUST FOCUSED ON THE BORING LEGAL ASPECTS OF IT.
BUT I DID PUBLISH A LAW REVIEW ARTICLE IN 99 ABOUT OPEN GOVERNMENT AND SOCIAL MEDIA.
'CAUSE THERE WASN'T MUCH GUIDANCE.
AND SO WE'LL TAKE SOME OF WHAT WE LEARNED AND APPLY IT TO THIS.
UM, I'VE GIVEN YOU LOTS AND LOTS OF EXAMPLES.
[02:30:01]
ALL.BUT AS YOU CAN SEE, JUST FROM SOME OF THESE CLIPPINGS, SOME WILL LOOK FAMILIAR.
THERE'S NO SHORTAGE OF MATERIAL OUT THERE TO WARN THOSE OF US.
PARTICULARLY IF YOU'RE IN PUBLIC SERVICE, ABOUT THE DANGERS OF SOCIAL MEDIA GONE AWRY.
UH, PUBLIC OFFICIALS, WHETHER THEY'RE LAWYERS, ELECTED STAFF, UH, PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS GOING OUT AND, AND DOING SOME RIDICULOUS THINGS THAT HAVE REAL WORLD CONSEQUENCES ON, ON THEIR LIVES.
UM, AND YOU KNOW, IN THE, IN THE LOWER LEFT HAND CORNER, YOU'VE GOT THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE STATE BAR OF TEXAS, THE MOMENT HE GOT ELECTED, THERE ARE FACEBOOK POSTS THAT SURFACED FROM HIS PAST WHERE HE SAID THINGS THAT WERE MISOGYNISTIC AND RACIALLY INSENSITIVE.
OR RATHER THAN APOLOGIZE AND TELL US ALL HOW MUCH HE'D LEARNED, HE DOUBLED DOWN AND POSTED A BUNCH OF NEW MATERIAL.
AND THERE WAS NO WAY FOR THE STATE BAR TO REMOVE HIM.
SO INSTEAD THEY JUST STOPPED INVITING HIM TO THINGS.
SO MEETINGS AND CONFERENCES AND SEMINARS THAT NORMALLY THE PRESIDENT WOULD GO TO.
AT UPPER LEFT HAND, YOU SEE A PRESIDENT OF A PRIVATE RELIGIOUS INSTITUTION STEPPING DOWN FROM RUNNING THAT INSTITUTION FOR PUTTING PHOTOS LIKE THAT OUT ON SOCIAL MEDIA.
ONE THING I'LL SAY OVER AND OVER AGAIN, THERE WAS A POINT IN OUR LIVES AND WE'RE ALL OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER BEING CAUGHT ON FILM.
SOMEONE CATCHING YOU, BEING SOMEWHERE YOU WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE, DOING WHAT YOU WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE DOING WITH SOMEBODY YOU WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE WITH.
NOW WE'RE DOING IT TO OURSELVES.
WE'RE TAKING OUR OWN PHOTOS OF THOSE SAME THINGS AND PUTTING IT ON SOCIAL MEDIA.
AND THEN WE ARE INDIGNANT AND OUTRAGE WHEN SOMEBODY CALLS US ON THAT.
THEY HAVE, IN ADDITION TO JUST THE PRACTICALITIES, YOU'VE GOT PEOPLE BEING BOUNCED OUT OF OFFICE.
YOU HAVE MUNICIPALITIES BEING SUED, YOU HAVE JUDGES BEING RECUSED FROM COURT CASES.
ONE THING I FIND IS CHRISTMAS IS HERE.
WE GOT OUR POINTS SET ON THE TABLE.
THE, THE ONE IN THE MIDDLE REALLY KIND OF OFFENDS ME.
'CAUSE I USED TO LIVE IN WILLIAMSON COUNTY, WHICH IS GEORGETOWN, AUSTIN ROUND ROCK.
IT'S BAD ENOUGH THAT ONE OF THE TOP COPS IN THE SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT THOUGHT IT WAS FUNNY TO POST AN ELF ON THE SHELF PHOTO WHERE THE ELF GAVE BARBIE A ROOFIE AND WAS HOLDING HER HEAD WHILE SHE VOMITED.
OKAY, THAT'S PRETTY BAD THAT A SENIOR LEVEL OFFICER WOULD DO THAT.
WHAT'S WORSE IS THE COUNTY JUDGE LIKED IT AND THE COUNTY JUDGE THEN HAD TO GO THROUGH AND EXPLAIN WHY HE THOUGHT THAT WAS ACCEPTABLE OR THAT WAS FUNNY.
SO MAYBE YOU DON'T HAVE THE IMPULSE PROBLEM WHEN IT COMES TO POSTING QUESTIONABLE MATERIAL.
BUT WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN YOU LIKE IT OR YOU COMMENT? CAN A LIKE REALLY COST YOU A JOB? AND IT, AND IT CAN, UH, JUDGES BEING RECUSED FROM CASES BECAUSE THEY LIKED SOMETHING.
YEARS LATER YOU REALIZE THAT THAT SAME LAWYER IS BEFORE THE COURT.
THIS SLIDE TALKS A LOT ABOUT THE BIG FREEZE WE HAD IN 2021 AND A MAYOR OUT IN WEST TEXAS BASICALLY SAYING, SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST.
IF YOU'RE NOT PREPARED TO DEAL WITH DAYS AND DAYS WITH NO POWER, NO WATER, UM, NO HEAT, WELL THEN THAT'S JUST GOD'S WAY.
NOTHING ABOUT WHAT I'M TELLING YOU IS GONNA TELL YOU THAT I AM THE THOUGHT POLICE OR THE HEART POLICE.
BUT WHEN YOU ARE MAYOR OR MANAGER OR AN ELECTED CITY COUNCIL MEMBER, CAN YOU SHOW SOME COMPASSION FOR THOSE THAT ARE STRUGGLING? AND SO, INSTEAD OF BEING SO BRASH ABOUT A WINTER STORM IN WHICH HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE DIED, UH, I DOUBT SERIOUSLY THAT PORT ARTHUR'S BUDGET INCLUDES 120 GRAND FOR LAWYERS' FEES AND DAMAGES TO PAY FOR A LAWSUIT WHEN THE MAYOR GOES AND SAYS SOMETHING IRRESPONSIBLE ON SOCIAL MEDIA.
BUT YET CITIES DO PAY OUT THAT SORT OF THING.
AND SO THE ACTIONS OF THE INDIVIDUAL MIGHT BE IMPUGNED UPON THE CITY DEPENDING ON THE SITUATION.
AND THEN OF COURSE, THE NEW TIKTOK BAN.
UH, YOU ARE REQUIRED TO HAVE A POLICY THAT BANS ACCESSING TIKTOK ON ALL CITY DEVICES.
UH, THAT LAW WENT INTO EFFECT SEPTEMBER 1ST.
THE DEPARTMENT OF INFORMATION RESOURCES AND DPS WERE ORDERED TO COME UP WITH A MODEL POLICY.
HAVE YOU ADOPTED THEIR MODEL POLICY, RON? NO, YOU HAVEN'T.
'CAUSE THEY HAVEN'T WRITTEN IT YET.
IT'S DECEMBER TOMORROW AND THEY STILL HAVE NOT GIVEN US A MODEL POLICY, BUT YOU'RE REQUIRED TO HAVE ONE CONSISTENT WITH THEIR MODEL POLICY.
SO WE WILL ADDRESS TIKTOK AND ANY OTHER PLATFORM THE GOVERNOR DEEMS TO BE BAD IS WHAT THE STATUTE SAYS.
DON'T WORRY, HEARING WILL START SOON.
I'M THE ONE OF THE MANY LAWSUITS FILED TO CHALLENGE THE CONSTITUTIONALITY OF THAT STATUTE.
SO IF YOU THINK ALL MY OTHER PICTURES ARE DATED, THIS IS OCTOBER WHERE YOU'VE GOT A SITTING JUDGE DURING A TRIAL TEXTING THE BAILIFF ABOUT WHAT
[02:35:01]
A, A WRECK OF A HUMAN THE MOTHER IS AND DEALING WITH THE DEATH OF A CHILD.WHAT WOULD CAUSE SOMEBODY WHO'S SMART ENOUGH AND SUCCESSFUL ENOUGH TO REACH THE BENCH TO THINK THAT ACTIVITY IS OKAY? I WOULD HOPE SHE'S ACTUALLY PAYING ATTENTION TO THE TRIAL.
SHE'S PRESIDING OVER, BUT SHE WAS NOT.
AND SO WHEN YOU ASK ME QUESTIONS ABOUT TEXTING AT THE DAAS OR WE TALK ABOUT OUR COLLEAGUE LONG AGO IN EL PASO WATCHING FOOTBALL AT THE DAAS, UH, YOU HAVE TO BE PREPARED TO OWN THESE SORTS OF THINGS BECAUSE THE BIG TAKEAWAY FROM THIS ENTIRE PRESENTATION IS THIS SLIDE.
WHAT YOU DO IN CYBERSPACE CAN HAVE AN EFFECT ON YOU, YOUR CAREER, YOUR FAMILY.
I HEARD SOMEONE MENTION AT LUNCH, THEY WON'T TEXT WHAT THEY WON'T PUT ON A BILLBOARD.
SHE WAS A PUBLIC SCHOOL COUNSELOR FOR 20 YEARS.
SHE WON'T PUT ON FACEBOOK, BUT SHE WOULDN'T PUT ON A BILLBOARD ON THE INTERSTATE.
THAT KIND OF RULE MAKES YOUR LIFE A LOT SIMPLER.
UH, I PROBABLY LIKE VAL AND EVERY OTHER ATTORNEY GET IN FIGHTS WITH CLIENTS, FRIENDS, FAMILY ALL THE TIME.
'CAUSE THEY THINK FREE SPEECH MEANS I SHOULD SAY WHAT I WANT.
AND NOBODY BUGGED ME ABOUT IT.
AND THAT'S CERTAINLY DEFINITELY NOT THE LAW.
SO I, I'VE ADMITTED TO YOU THAT I'M A FAN OF SOCIAL MEDIA.
AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT BLURRING THE LINES LATER ON.
I HAVE COMPLETELY BLURRED THEM.
I HAVE FRIENDS ON MY FACEBOOK.
I HAVE CLIENTS ON MY FACEBOOK.
I HAVE COLLEAGUES ON MY FACEBOOK.
Y'ALL CAN JOIN ME ON FACEBOOK.
GUESS WHAT? IT'S COMPLETELY G RATED.
THERE IS NO ALCOHOL, RELIGION, POLITICS, NOT MUCH OF ANYTHING.
IT'S NOT POSITIVE ON MY FACEBOOK BECAUSE I'VE CHOSE TO USE IT FOR WORK AND FOR MY PERSONAL LIFE.
UM, THERE'S DEFINITELY GOOD THINGS.
YOU CAN BE FASTER THAN THE NEWSPAPER.
IT IS DIRECT TO THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO HEAR IT.
BUT WE USED TO SPEND ON GOING TO A PRINT SHOP AND GETTING FLYERS POSTED AND THEN WE HAVE TO HAVE POSTAGE AND SOMEONE TO STUFF ENVELOPES.
THAT'S A GLORIOUS TIME FOR THOSE OF US IN PUBLIC SERVICE TO KEEP OUR CITIZENS EDUCATED.
BUT MY GOSH, IT CAN BE IMPULSIVE.
IT CAN BE UNVETTED UNFILTERED.
I HAVE PEOPLE IN MY OFFICE PROOFREAD A MEMO BEFORE I SEND IT A LETTER BEFORE I SEND IT.
DO THEY PROOFREAD YOUR TEXTS, YOUR EMAILS, YOUR SOCIAL MEDIA POSTS, SOCIAL? NOPE.
AND WHO, WHO OUT THERE THINKS GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE IMPULSIVE? GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE UNFILTERED.
GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE INACCURATE.
BUT YET IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.
AND THE THING IS, YOU CAN GO ONLINE AND SEARCH UP AND, AND DIG UP, UH, DRAMA FROM YEARS AND YEARS AGO.
'CAUSE IT'S REALLY HARD TO SCOUR THE INTERNET AND GET IT TAKEN DOWN FROM THERE.
ONCE IT IS UP THERE, CERTAINLY FACEBOOK, SHOULD FACEBOOK PHASES FOR GOVERNMENT OR FACEBOOK COME WITH IT? SHOULD FACEBOOK POSTS AND PODCASTS AND UM, FACEBOOK LIVES, SHOULD THEY BE DONE WITH A DISCLAIMER? I THINK THAT'S A GOOD IDEA.
THE DISCLAIMER WOULD BE SOMETHING ALONG THE LINES OF THIS IS ALAN'S FACEBOOK.
IT'S THE OPINIONS ARE HIS ONLY, I DO NOT REPRESENT THE CITY OF PORT ARTHUR ON THIS FACEBOOK.
SOMETHING NICE AND SIMPLE THAT COULD BE A POLICY IF YOU CHOOSE TO HAVE A POLICY THAT COULD BE THE CITY'S POLICY.
WHAT HAPPENS WHEN IT'S DONE AS A COUNCIL PERSON THAT THIS, THE DISCLAIMER ACTUALLY IS BECAUSE I'M AN OFFICER OF THE COURT OR I AM A, UM, COUNSEL PERSON, THIS IS MY DUTY.
AND SO THOSE MESSAGES ON SOCIAL MEDIA, I THINK I THINK A LITTLE BIT OF CLARITY CAN GO A LONG WAY.
IF, IF IT'S YOUR OFFICIAL FACEBOOK POST, IT'S OFFICIAL FOR THE CITY OF PORT ARTHUR, IT'S OFFICIAL FOR THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, IT'S OFFICIAL FOR THE CITY MANAGER, IT'S OFFICIAL FOR YOU AS A COUNCIL MEMBER SAY SO.
BUT THEN UNDERSTAND THAT THERE'S A DIFFERENT SET OF RULES THAT APPLY TO THAT THAN YOUR OWN PERSONAL ONE.
AND WE'LL TALK AT LENGTH ABOUT THAT LATER ON, UH, IN THE PRESENTATION.
SO AS A SIDE NOTE, CITY MANAGER AND CITY ATTORNEY, I AM ASKING FOR US TO GO INTO MORE DETAIL ABOUT POLICY ON HOW WE WILL MOVE FORWARD WITH THOSE TYPES OF, UM, FACEBOOK POSTS, INSTAGRAM POSTS, ANY SOCIAL MEDIA POLICY.
WE HAVE A SOCIAL MEDIA POLICY FOR STAFF, BUT WE DON'T HAVE ONE FOR COUNCIL.
WELL, I THINK THAT THIS, THAT'S WHAT THIS IS SAYING.
YOU KNOW, THE, THE CITY POLICIES GOVERN THE STAFF AS AN ELECTED OFFICIAL OR, OR PUBLIC OFFICIAL.
[02:40:01]
GOVERN YOURSELVES ACCORDINGLY OR, AND HE'S EXPLAINING WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES TO THE CITY ARE.SO I THINK THAT'S WHAT THIS IS.
BUT WE DON'T GOVERN COUNCIL MEMBERS.
THE PERSONNEL POLICY HAS TO DO WITH THE STAFF.
I DON'T THINK WE HAVE A, OUR SOCIAL MEDIA POLICY, IT ACTUALLY WAS WRITTEN BY YOU QUITE A WHILE BACK, YOU KNOW, THAT DEALS WITH THE CITY.
BUT AS A A WHAT WE ARE SAYING IS POLICY OR NO POLICY, YOU HAVE TO GOVERN YOURSELVES IN A CERTAIN WAY OR YOU MAY FACE LEGAL CONSEQUENCES.
SO EVEN IF IT'S ME OUT IN THE WORLD, YOU KNOW, IF, IF I'VE DONE, IF I DO SOMETHING, I HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE, THERE MAY BE CONSEQUENCES TO THAT ACTION.
OKAY? BUT WE HAVE NO STANDARD AS TO SAY WHAT THOSE CONSEQUENCES WOULD BE.
WELL, FOR FOR EXAMPLE, I WOULD ONLY USE MYSELF AN EXAMPLE.
I WOULDN'T USE ANYONE ELSE IF I GO OUT AND DO SOMETHING THAT IMPACTS ANOTHER PERSON.
THE CONSEQUENCE I MAY FACE IS WHAT THAT OTHER PERSON MAY FILE A LAWSUIT AGAINST ME OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
BUT THE CITY, WHAT HE'S EXPLAINING TO YOU, AND PLEASE CHIME IN, IS WHAT HE'S EXPLAINING WHERE THE CITY'S LINE STOPS AND WHERE YOUR INDIVIDUAL LINE BEGINS.
I MEAN, FOR EVERY, ANY ACTION THAT ANYONE DOES, YOU KNOW, IF I, UM, AND, AND I GUESS WE SAYING LIKE THERE'S CERTAIN COVERAGE THAT WE HAVE, THERE'S CERTAIN COVERAGE WE DON'T HAVE, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE FREE SPEECH.
BUT, BUT, BUT THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES TO THAT AND SOME THINGS THE CITY CAN PROTECT YOU WITH AND SOME THINGS THE CITY CAN'T.
SO WHAT I, WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO THROW OUT THERE YEAH.
IS THAT THIS IS A, THIS IS A PRIMER THAT MAY BE HELPFUL TO YOU AS THE BEGINNING OF THE CONVERSATION, BUT IT MAY NOT BE THE END OF THE CONVERSATION.
THE POLICY YOU HAVE NOW, OUR FIRM HELPED WITH A MEMBER OF OUR FIRM, LEAH SIMON, HELPED WITH THAT YEARS AGO IN RESPONSE TO WHAT TWO PARTICULAR EMPLOYEES DID THAT HAD CONSEQUENCES FOR THE CITY OF PORT ARTHUR.
UM, SINCE THEN, YOU KNOW, VAL, I CAN HELP YOU.
UM, THE INTERNATIONAL MUNICIPAL LAWYERS ASSOCIATION, OF WHICH I'M ON THE BOARD, UM, WE APPROVED A, A MODEL POLICY THAT HAS SOME PROVISIONS THAT COULD INCLUDE ELECTED OFFICIALS.
AND SO I CAN GET THAT TO YOU VAL.
AND WE MAY USE THAT AS SOMETHING TO EXPLORE.
UM, IF THE COUNCIL WANTS TO EXPAND THEIR POLICY.
WHEN YOU GO THROUGH THIS TRAINING THAT I'M GONNA COVER HERE IN JUST A LITTLE BIT, YOU'LL SEE VARIOUS AREAS WHERE PERSONAL VERSUS PRIVATE CAUSES SOME PROBLEMS. AND THE CITY MAY WANT SOME POLICIES.
'CAUSE SOMETIMES ELECTED OFFICIALS STRAY BEYOND THE PAC AND THE PACK HAS SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT THAT.
AND I'VE GOT A COUPLE EXAMPLES THAT I WANNA SHOW YOU.
AND SO ONCE YOU SEE THOSE, YOU MIGHT BE THINKING WHAT YOU'VE GOT IS PERFECT, YOU DON'T NEED ANYTHING.
OR MAYBE YOU WANT A LITTLE BIT MORE.
AND IF SO, I'VE GOT A MODEL POLICY THAT I DIDN'T WRITE, BUT I'M WITH THE GROUP THAT DID AND IT GIVES YOU SOME GOOD OPTIONS.
I WOULD REALLY APPRECIATE READING THAT.
RIGHT NOW, IN MY OPINION, WE ARE EXTREMELY VULNERABLE.
OKAY? I'LL GLADLY SHARE THAT WITH YOU AS A FOLLOW UP TO THIS.
I KNOW, UH, I THINK ABOUT 2019 I WAS AT A TML CONFERENCE AND THEY ADDRESS A CHANGE.
THEY HAD JUST MADE THAT, UH, INVOLVED, UH, FACEBOOK, SOCIAL MEDIA.
AND THAT CHANGE WAS THAT IF, UH, WE HAVE A SOCIAL MEDIA ACCOUNT, OUR ACCOUNT, NOT THE CITIES, THAT WE CANNOT BLOCK CITIZENS ON THAT.
AND I DIDN'T HEAR YOU SAY THAT, BUT YOU KNOW, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT THEY PUT OUT AT THAT CONFERENCE THAT I ATTENDED WHEN THEY ADDRESSED THAT CHANGE TO SOCIAL MEDIA WHERE THEY SAID IF YOU HAVE A SOCIAL MEDIA ACCOUNT MM-HMM
I JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT THAT STILL WAS IN PLACE.
I'LL ABSOLUTELY COVER THAT FOR YOU.
SO THERE'S THE AGENDA POPPED UP ON THE SCREEN OF THE THINGS THAT I'M GOING TO COVER.
AND, AND YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
SO IF IT'S ON YOUR MIND AND IT'S ON TMLS MIND, THEN IT'S WORTH TALKING ABOUT HERE TODAY.
UM, WE TALKED ABOUT OPEN GOVERNMENT.
I MENTIONED IT A FEW TIMES, BUT IT'S WORTH HIGHLIGHTING THE, THE TEXAS LIBRARY AND ARCHIVES COMMISSION, WHICH OVERSEES OUR RECORDS RETENTION SCHEDULE HAS SAID SOCIAL MEDIA IS A PUBLIC RECORD, WHICH MEANS WE HAVE A DUTY TO HOLD ONTO IT.
WELL, THAT'S EASY WHEN IT'S THE CITY OF PORT ARTHUR'S, MAYBE OUR PARKS AND REC DEPARTMENT HAS THEIR OWN PAGE.
WHAT ABOUT WHEN INDIVIDUALS ARE OUT THERE CREATING THEIR OWN PAGES AND USING IT FOR GOVERNMENT PURPOSES? THAT GETS HARDER.
AND SO THAT'S WHY SOMETIMES YOU MAY WANT TO HAVE A POLICY THAT DEALS WITH THAT.
IF YOU EVER WALK INTO THE INTERNATIONAL CITY MANAGEMENT ASSOCIATION CONFERENCE AND THEIR EXHIBIT HALL, YOU SEE LOTS OF VENDORS SELLING YOU
[02:45:01]
SOFTWARE PACKAGES TO AGGREGATE AND ARCHIVE YOUR SOCIAL MEDIA.SO THE MARKET IS RESPONDING TO THE LAW TO MAKE IT EASIER TO SAVE THOSE THINGS BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO PROVIDE IT WITH SOMEONE, ASK FOR IT.
SO IT'S EASY IF SOMEONE COMES INTO CITY HALL AND ASK, HEY, I WANNA SEE WHAT COUNCIL MEMBER A, BC PUT ONLINE.
WELL GO, GO LOOK AT THEIR WEBSITE.
GO LOOK AT THEIR FACEBOOK PAGE.
ALRIGHT, SO WHAT'S THE CITY SUPPOSED TO DO IF THE CITY SECRETARY'S NOT FRIENDED EITHER? THAT'S A CHALLENGE THE LAW HAS NOT CAUGHT UP WITH.
UH, IF, IF SOMETHING EXISTS ON A WEBSITE AND YOU CAN ANSWER THE OPEN RECORDS REQUEST BY GIVING THE REQUESTER THE URL TO GO TO AND JUST CLICK ON THEMSELVES.
IF THEY'RE OKAY WITH THAT, THEN IT'S OVER FILE CLOSED.
BUT IF THEY WANT A COPY OF IT AND YOU CAN PROVIDE THEM A COPY, THEN YOU HAVE A DUTY TO PROVIDE THEM A COPY.
AGAIN, IT'S EASY IF IT'S YOUR OWN SITE OR YOU HAVE ACCESS TO IT.
WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN THERE'S A CITY SITE YOU DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO? I HAVE NO ANSWER FOR YOU.
THE LEGISLATURE HAS NOT ADDRESSED THAT ONE.
SO MAYBE YOU HAVE A POLICY THAT SAYS NO CITY EMPLOYEE AND NO DEPARTMENT CREATES A A SOCIAL MEDIA SITE WITHOUT GETTING PERMISSION FROM THE CITY MANAGER'S OFFICE.
THAT'S A NICE EASY POLICY TO HAVE.
BUT I'VE WORKED WITH CITIES WHERE YEAH, THE FIRE CHIEF CHIEF OF POLICE TAKES IT ON THEMSELVES IN THE NAME OF COMMUNITY POLICING AND CITIZEN ENGAGEMENT TO CREATE SITES THAT THE CITY HAS NO IDEA ABOUT AND DISCOVERS THEM LATER.
SO YOU WANT TO KIND OF KEEP UP WITH THOSE SORTS OF THINGS BECAUSE OF OPEN RECORDS.
AND THEN THE FINAL ONE IS OPEN MEETINGS.
I'VE SAT IN THOSE CITY COUNCIL MEETINGS THAT ADJOURN AT MIDNIGHT AND BEFORE I CAN EVEN PACK UP MY COMPUTER AND MY BRIEFCASE COUNCIL MEMBERS ARE LOOKING ONTO NEXTDOOR.COM WHEN, OH MY GOSH, THE TROLLS WERE ALREADY OUT THERE MISCHARACTERIZING WHAT WE'VE DONE TONIGHT.
I'M GONNA GO ON THERE AND SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT.
I'M GOING TO SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT WHEN MY CLIENTS ARE OUT SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT, THAT MEANS I CAN PAY CASH FOR MY KID TO GO TO COLLEGE.
'CAUSE I'VE GOT PLENTY OF WORK TO DO BECAUSE NOT JUST ONE COUNCILMAN GOES ON, A SECOND ONE GOES ON AND THE THIRD ONE GOES ON AND I'M JUST WATCHING 1, 2, 3, 4.
WHEN ARE WE GONNA HAVE A MAJORITY OF THE COUNCIL GOING ON TO THIS SAME POST? TO SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT, IDEALLY YOU'VE GOT A CITY EMPLOYEE WHO HAS NOT ONLY GOOD COMMUNICATION SKILLS, BUT IMPULSE CONTROL.
AND THEN YOU GET THEIR BACK AND YOU TRUST THEM TO GO OUT THERE AND SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT FOR YOU.
WE SELDOM GET TO WORK IN AN IDEAL WORLD.
AND NOW PEOPLE TELL ME, WELL, GOSH, ALAN, MY CONSTITUENTS WHO VOTED FOR ME EXPECT ME TO COMMUNICATE WITH THEM DIRECTLY AND TELL THEM HOW IT IS.
I I'M IN NO POSITION TO CRITICIZE OR STOP THAT.
I'M JUST HERE TO TELL YOU THAT CERTAIN THINGS COME ALONG WITH THAT WHEN YOU DO IT AND YOU DON'T WANT TO VIOLATE OPEN MEETINGS ONLINE.
'CAUSE THERE'S A DIGITAL PAPER TRAIL TO BE USED AGAINST YOU.
YOU'RE, YOU'RE, YOU'RE
Y ALLEGEDLY YOU'RE, YOU'RE IN A, YOU KNOW, WE, WE HAVEN'T SEEN ALL, YOU KNOW, WE'VE SEEN YOUR YOUR RING, SO WE KNOW YOU WENT TO SCHOOL SOMEWHERE, UH, BUT
BUT, UM, IT'S KIND OF LIKE THAT THING AS AN, AS AN ATTORNEY, YOU'RE IN A COURTROOM AND YOU KNOW, UH, SOMEBODY SAYS SOMETHING AND YOU KNOW, YOU HOLLER OBJECTION AND THEN THE JUDGE GIVES THE JURY AND THEY SAY, YOU'RE THE DISREGARD THAT REMARK.
YOU KNOW, SO THAT'S, YOU KNOW, SO WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT, HOW DO I MEAN, WHAT, WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO? JUST, JUST HAVE TOUGH SKIN, RIGHT? THAT'S IT.
TO, TO BE IN PUBLIC SERVICE THESE DAYS, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A TOUGH SKIN.
UM, I, I MENTIONED BEFORE THE BREAK, I AM A BIG ADVOCATE OF CITIES SPENDING MONEY ON COMMUNICATIONS.
UH, GIVE, GIVE THE PUBLIC A STEADY DIET OF THE TRUTH OR THEY WILL CONSUME ANYTHING.
AND THAT, THAT HAS BEEN MY MANTRA FOR 27 YEARS.
AND IT MEANS MORE NOW THAN EVER BECAUSE WITH SOCIAL MEDIA, WE CAN BE SELECTIVE ABOUT WHAT MEDIA WE LISTEN TO AND VIEW.
AND MAYBE WE SELF-SELECT ONLY PLATFORMS THAT TELL US WHAT WE WANT TO HEAR.
AND WE DON'T WANT TO HEAR THE TRUTH.
MY HOPE IS THAT THAT'S A MINORITY OF YOUR CITIZENS.
THAT MOST OF YOUR CITIZENS STILL WANT TO HEAR WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY.
AND SO POSITIVE, FACTUAL, PUBLIC INFORMATION RESPONSES, UH, SOCIAL MEDIA POSTS, THE OCCASIONAL PRESS CONFERENCE AND PRESS RELEASE POSTING SOMETHING ON YOUR WEBSITE, TELL THE PUBLIC WHAT YOU REALLY DID.
AND INCREASINGLY, I THINK WE ARE FEELING PRESSURED TO TELL THEM WHY WE DID IT.
UH, I THINK MORE AND MORE PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW WHY.
AND HISTORICALLY, I DON'T THINK GOVERNMENT IN GENERAL, CITIES IN PARTICULAR HAVE BEEN VERY GOOD AT
[02:50:01]
THAT.UH, I'VE HAD CLIENTS WHO THINK SPENDING MONEY ON COMMUNICATIONS PROFESSIONALS IS, YOU KNOW, USING TAXPAYER MONEY FOR PUBLIC RELATIONS AND SPIN DOCTORS.
SO YOU WANT THEM TO UNDERSTAND, IF YOU WANNA BE TRANSPARENT, YOU WANT TO GIVE THEM CONTEXT AND YOU WANT TO TELL THEM WHAT YOU'RE REALLY DOING.
AND SO IF YOU'RE NOT REALLY CLOSING THE RODEO ARENA, A PLAN IS JUST A PLAN FROM A CONSULTANT.
SAY SO, SAY SO AFFIRMATIVELY, SAY IT OUT LOUD, SAY IT IN ADVANCE, OR YOU GET TO DEAL WITH THE BACKLASH THAT'S BASED ON A MISUNDERSTANDING.
AND SO FOR THE CLIENTS THAT I HAVE THAT HAVE REALLY GOOD SOCIAL MEDIA DEPARTMENTS, PEOPLE THAT ARE PAID AND SKILLED WITH WHAT TO SAY AND NOT SAY, THAT MAKES ME HAPPY.
'CAUSE I THEN WE SPEND LESS TIME DEALING WITH THE CONSEQUENCES OF MISINFORMATION.
BUT THEN I DON'T VOTE ON THE BUDGET AND I'M NEVER BEEN CITY MANAGER.
SO I DON'T HIRE COMMUNICATIONS PEOPLE.
I JUST THINK AS A LAWYER, MY JOB WOULD BE EASIER IF WE DID A BETTER JOB OF TELLING OUR STORIES AND MOST OF US DON'T.
THE SECOND THING I WANTED TO MENTION WAS HUMAN RESOURCES.
I LOVE THIS ONE FOR MANY, MANY REASONS.
WHOEVER HAD A PAGER, LIKE SAY, WHO'S TOO YOUNG? THEY'VE NEVER HAD A PAGER.
I ONLY HAD ONE DURING THE LEGISLATIVE SESSION WHEN TML WOULD ISSUE IT TO ME WHEN I WAS A STAFF ATTORNEY.
AND WHEN THE SESSION WAS OVER, THEY TOOK IT BACK.
AND I WAS GLAD 'CAUSE I FELT LIKE A DRUG DEALER.
DOCTORS AND DRUG DEALERS HAD PAGERS.
THAT'S HOW IGNORANT I WAS AT THAT AGE.
IT'S AN OLD CASE, BUT STILL GOOD LAW.
YOUR CITY ATTORNEY LOVES THIS CASE.
YOUR HR DIRECTOR LOVES THIS CASE.
'CAUSE IT STANDS FOR A SIMPLE PRINCIPLE THAT WE'VE HAD FOR YEARS.
YOU HAVE NO REASONABLE EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY AND THINGS GIVEN TO YOU BY THE CITY OF PORT ARTHUR.
IF WE GIVE YOU A PHONE, A DESK, A LOCKER, A TRUCK, AN IPAD, A LAPTOP, IT DOESN'T MATTER.
WE CAN TAKE IT BACK AND SEARCH IT WHENEVER WE WANT.
AND YOU CAN SCREAM THAT IT'S AN UNCONSTITUTIONAL SEARCH AND SEIZURE YOU'RE GOING TO LOSE.
AND IN THIS CASE, TWO POLICE OFFICERS WERE SPENDING THEIR TIME SENDING INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES ON THEIR PAGERS WHEN AN AUDIT WAS DONE AND THAT WAS FOUND.
NOW I'VE GOT CLIENTS WHERE THE MORNING SHIFT WALKS IN, FIRES UP THE COMPUTERS, THE DESKTOPS AND FIND GRAPHIC IMAGES OF MAIL GENITALIA ON THE COMPUTER AT THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.
WHY? FIRST OF ALL, WHY WOULD ANYONE TAKE THAT PICTURE? AND WHY IS THAT PICTURE ON PUBLIC PROPERTY? TURNS OUT THE NIGHT SHIFT WAS BORED.
TURNS OUT THE NIGHT SHIFT WAS BORED AND A POLICE OFFICER CHOSE TO USE EMAIL TO SEND A SOUTHERLY SELFIE TO THEIR GIRLFRIEND.
WHY? WHY WOULD HE USE A C COMPUTER TO SEND THAT KIND OF GRAPHIC PORNOGRAPHY TO THEIR GIRLFRIEND? YOU KNOW WHY? 'CAUSE HIS WIFE LOOKS AT HIS CELL PHONE.
AND SO THE CHIEF DID NOT WANNA FIRE THIS OFFICER.
AND I'M HAVING TO WALK THE CHIEF THROUGH THIS THING.
IT'S NOT ABOUT HAVING AN ADULTEROUS AFFAIR.
IT'S NOT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, TAKING PICTURES OR USING EQUIPMENT OR WHATEVER YOUR COMPUTER USE POLICY IS.
CAN YOU TRUST THIS OFFICER TO MAKE THE RIGHT DECISIONS WHEN, WHEN LIFE IS ON THE LINE KNOWING THEY'LL DO THIS? BUT HE'S A, HE'S A GREAT OFFICER AND HE'S A GOOD FRIEND.
DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT HE PUT ON OUR COMPUTERS IS NOW A PUBLIC RECORD THAT WE HAVE TO ARCHIVE.
ARE YOU WAITING FOR HIS WIFE OR HIS WIFE'S ATTORNEY TO FILE THE OPEN RECORDS REQUEST OR A SUBPOENA? THAT'S THE POSITION YOUR FRIEND, THE OFFICER PUT US IN.
SO HE GOT THE OFFICER TO RE TO RESIGN AND WE NEVER HEARD FROM HIM AGAIN.
YOU KNOW, I, I GOT BETTER STORIES THAN THAT.
HE BECAME THE CHIEF OF POLICE IN THE TOWN NEXT DOOR.
AND SO HE'S STILL EMPLOYABLE AND STILL GOT A BADGE OF GUN IN A CAR THAT GOES FAST.
PEOPLE WILL, PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE, HUMANS MAKE BAD DECISIONS? ARE THEY MAKING THEM ON OUR EQUIPMENT? ARE THEY USING SOCIAL MEDIA TO DO IT? UM, WE HAVE A RIGHT TO AUDIT THEIR STUFF.
SO SOMETIMES MAYBE JUST TRAINING YOUR STAFFS TO UNDERSTAND.
WE CAN AUDIT THEIR STUFF WHENEVER WE FEEL LIKE IT WITHOUT THEM KNOWING IT MIGHT DETER THEM FROM DOING SOME STUPID THINGS THAT PUT YOU IN A REALLY UNCOMFORTABLE POSITION.
THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THEY DON'T VET 'EM.
UH, THIS ONE'S RELEVANT FOR A FEW REASONS.
[02:55:01]
IT'S NEARBY.AND Y'ALL PROBABLY SAW THIS IN THE NEWSPAPER AS IT UNFOLDED.
YOU HAD A MEMBER OF THE, THE, UH, COMMUNITY COLLEGE DISTRICT JUST DOWN THE ROAD IN HOUSTON, BASHING OTHER MEMBERS OF THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS AND STAFF ON HIS WEBSITE, ON HIS SOCIAL MEDIA AND TO JOURNALISTS.
EVENTUALLY THE REST OF THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS PUBLICLY REPRIMANDED HIM FOR DOING THOSE THINGS.
HE TOOK IT LIKE A BIG BOY AND LEARNED HIS LESSON AND WENT ON TO BE A MORE CORDIAL, COOPERATIVE PERSON.
HE SUED CLAIMING HE HAD A FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT TO SAY WHATEVER HE WANTED TO, AND THAT THE BOARD VIOLATED HIS FIRST AMENDMENT FREE SPEECH RIGHTS BY REPRIMANDING HIM FOR WHAT HE PUT OUT THERE THAT WENT TO THE TRIAL COURT.
HE APPEALED TO NEW ORLEANS, THE FIFTH CIRCUIT.
THEY SAID, I DON'T KNOW, THIS KIND OF SMELLS LIKE FIRST AMENDMENT TO ME.
GO BACK TO TRIAL AND LET'S DEVELOP THIS FURTHER.
IT GOT APPEALED TO THE US SUPREME COURT AND THIS CURRENT CONFIGURATION OF THE US SUPREME COURT RULED NO VIOLATION OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT.
THE BOARD HAD A RIGHT TO REPRIMAND THE BOARD MEMBER FOR WHAT THEY WERE DOING AND SAYING ON SOCIAL MEDIA AND ONLINE.
NOW, IF YOU READ THE OPINION CAREFULLY, THEY DO MAKE SOME MENTION OF THE FACT THAT ALL IT WAS WAS A VERBAL REPRIMAND, BUT THEY DIDN'T TELL US ANYTHING MORE.
SO DOES THAT MEAN IF THEY'D KICKED HIM OFF THE BOARD, THEN IT WOULD BE FIRST AMENDMENT? IF THEY HAD FINED HIM $500, IT WOULD'VE BEEN A FIRST AMENDMENT? I, I DON'T KNOW.
BUT I THINK THIS IS A GOOD CASE.
'CAUSE WE TALK ABOUT ETHICS LATER.
THERE'S ALWAYS QUESTIONS ABOUT THE ABILITY OF A BOARD OF DIRECTORS, THE CITY COUNCIL, THE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS TO REPRIMAND OR DISCIPLINE, UH, THEIR FELLOW MEMBERS FOR WHAT THEY'RE SAYING ON SOCIAL MEDIA OR IN THE PUBLIC.
THIS CASE FROM THE SUPREME COURT HELPS WITH THE ANSWER BEING YES, YES, YOU CAN.
DID IT, DID THEY HAVE A POLICY OR SOMETHING THAT HE SIGNED OFF ON? NOT THAT I'M AWARE OF.
MM-HMM,
THIS ONE IS ANOTHER TOUGH ONE.
UM, BUT YOU KNOW, AS MOST OF MY EXAMPLES ARE, I DIDN'T MAKE IT UP.
UH, BUT I'LL CHANGE THINGS TO PROTECT EVERYBODY.
AND THE ISSUE OF UM, WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN A MEMBER OF A BOARD OR MORE, YOU KNOW, OFTEN AN EMPLOYEE GOES AND DOES SOMETHING REGRETTABLE ON SOCIAL MEDIA.
THIS IS IS MY GIFT TO TO YOUR STAFF BECAUSE IT'S A CHECKLIST AND IT'S COBBLED TOGETHER FROM MANY CASES.
BUT I GIVE A COUPLE OF CASES THAT ARE GOOD SOURCES OF THIS DATA AND IT'S VERY SIMILAR TO A DATA PROBLEM THAT I HAVE WITH ONE OF MY CLIENTS.
JUST WITHIN THE LAST COUPLE YEARS.
A POLICE OFFICER GETS OFF DUTY, GOES HOME, GETS ON SOCIAL MEDIA, POST A PICTURE KIND OF LIKE THIS, NOT THIS PICTURE, BUT CLOSE.
AND YOU CAN THINK IT'S VERY, VERY INSULTING TO A CERTAIN RACIAL ETHNIC DEMOGRAPHIC AND ABSOLUTELY INSULTING ANYBODY WHO HAPPENS TO BE A MEMBER OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.
UH, THE NEXT MORNING THE CHIEF IS ON THE PHONE WITH ME WANTING MY HELP FIRING THIS POLICE OFFICER.
WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT POSTING ONLINE, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE FIRST AMENDMENT, WHICH IS THE GREATEST AMENDMENT.
'CAUSE IT ALLOWS US TO TALK ABOUT ALL THE OTHER AMENDMENTS.
WHAT DID YOUR OFFICER DO? AND WE GO THROUGH THIS CHECKLIST AND THIS KIND OF THING MATTERS.
WAS HE ON DUTY OR OFF DUTY? HE WAS OFF DUTY.
DID HE USE A CITY DEVICE OR A PERSONAL DEVICE? PERSONAL DEVICE.
UH, WAS IT POSTED THE PUBLIC OR PRIVATE? EH, HARD TO SAY.
COURTS HAVE SAID THAT FACEBOOK IS QUASI PRIVATE BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO BEFRIENDED TO SEE PARTS OF IT, BUT THEN PARTS OF IT ARE OPEN TO ANYBODY THAT GOES ON FACEBOOK DEPENDING ON HOW YOU, UM, PROGRAM IT.
SO THIS, WE'RE GONNA SAY IT WAS JUST KIND OF OPEN TO EVERYONE.
DID IT GENERATE A CONTROVERSY WITHIN MINUTES OF HIM POSTING THE NIGHT SHIFT AT THE POLICE DEPARTMENT WAS CALLING THE CHIEF OF POLICE AND DEMANDING THAT HE BE TERMINATED.
THEY WERE INSULTED BY WHAT HE PUT ON THERE.
IT INTERFER WITH THE PROPER OPERATIONS.
A A, A BIG POINT IS THAT THE CITY HAS AN OVERARCHING PRIORITY TO MAKE THE CITY OF PORT ARTHUR FUNCTION.
AND SOMETIMES THAT PRIORITY TRUMPS SOMEBODY'S FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS.
YOU DIDN'T LOSE 'EM JUST 'CAUSE YOU TOOK AN OATH OF OFFICE.
BUT DEPENDING ON WHAT YOU DO AND WHO YOU ARE, MAYBE YOU HAVE FEWER RIGHTS.
ONCE ONE GROUP AND I THINK HAS FEWER RIGHTS, POLICE OFFICERS, WHY LOOK AT WHAT WE TRUST THEM TO DO AND ASK THEM TO DO.
LOOK AT THE STRUCTURE OF THEIR ORGANIZATION.
THAT'S DIFFERENT THAN YOUR FINANCE DEPARTMENT.
WHAT'S ANOTHER GROUP THAT I THINK HAS FEWER FIRST
[03:00:01]
AMENDMENT RIGHTS SCHOOL TEACHERS? I THINK WE WE'RE ALLOWED LEGALLY TO TREAT SCHOOL TEACHERS DIFFERENTLY BECAUSE OF WHO THEY WORK WITH STUDENTS THAN WE CAN WITH THE IT DEPARTMENT AT A SCHOOL DISTRICT.AND SO THE COURT DOES DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THESE ROLES.
IN THIS CASE, WE HAD A POLICE OFFICER WHO WENT HOME, GOT ON HIS PERSONAL DEVICE, ON HIS FACEBOOK AND PUT SOMETHING THAT WAS VERY, VERY OFFENSIVE.
WHAT MADE THE CHIEF SUPER MAD? THEY HAD TRAINING ON SOCIAL MEDIA TWO WEEKS PRIOR.
SO THE CHIEFS GO, THIS GUY KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING.
HE KNEW OUR EXPECTATION, HE KNEW THE STANDARD AND HE DID IT ANYWAY.
WAS IT PERSONAL? WAS IT PRIVATE? I DON'T KNOW.
LOOK AT THE WEBSITE AND WE'LL BE TALKING ABOUT THIS MORE.
BUT THIS IS A TEASER FOR WHAT'S ABOUT TO COME WHEN WE TALK ABOUT BLOCKING.
HE IDENTIFIED HIMSELF AS A POLICE OFFICER WITH THIS CITY ON HIS FACEBOOK PAGE.
WHAT WAS HIS PROFILE PICTURE OF HIM IN A FLANNEL SHIRT PLAYING WITH KITTIES AND DOGGIES.
THE UNIFORM THE CITY GAVE HIM WITH A BADGE THAT WE GAVE HIM.
IN THE END, THE CHIEF CALMED DOWN, LOOKED AT THE SITUATION, LISTENED TO HIS TROOPS AND DECIDED TO FIND A MIDDLE WAY.
UH, THERE WAS A VACANT RECORDS MANAGER POSITION IN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.
HE WAS GIVEN AN OPPORTUNITY TO BE DEMOTED TO RECORDS MANAGER, WHICH WAS A PAY CUT NON-UNIFORM POSITION FOR SIX MONTHS.
AND AFTER THAT HE COULD APPLY TO GO BACK ONTO PATROL.
AT THAT POINT IN THE CONFERENCE WITH ME, THE CHIEF, THE POLICE OFFICER AND THE POLICE OFFICER'S UNION ATTORNEY, THE POLICE OFFICER REACHED OVER THE TABLE AND GAVE ME AN ELBOW BUMP.
I'VE NEVER DEMOTED SOMEONE AND GOTTEN AN ELBOW BUMP BEFORE.
HE WAS GRATEFUL HE TOOK IT, DID HIS SIX MONTHS AND RETIRED.
I FOUND OUT LATER HE HAD A WIFE WITH SOME SIGNIFICANT HEALTH ISSUES.
AND THAT'S WHY WHEN I SPEAK TO GROUPS LIKE CERTIFIED PUBLIC MANAGERS AND CITY MANAGER GROUPS, I HR DIRECTORS, SOMETIMES PEOPLE HAVE TO DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES WHAT MATTERS MORE TO ME.
MY FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT? OR MY KIDS' CROOKED TEETH.
'CAUSE I NEED DENTAL INSURANCE OR MY RENT OR MY MORTGAGE OR MY TRUCK PAYMENT.
AND MAYBE IT DOESN'T SEEM FAIR.
YOUR ONLINE ACTIVITY CAN HAVE REAL WORLD CONSEQUENCES IN THIS SITUATION.
I WAS VERY GLAD OF WHAT HAPPENED.
I THOUGHT IT WAS REASONABLE, IT WAS PROPORTIONAL.
AND, AND SOME OF THE OFFICERS WERE STILL UPSET 'CAUSE THEY WANTED HIS HEAD.
IT'S NOT THEIR DECISION, IT'S THE CHIEF OF POLICE DECISION IN THIS CASE.
I THINK HE DID THE RIGHT THING.
UH, I'M A LAWYER AND A LIBRA, SO BOY, I LOVE THE SCALES OF JUSTICE.
AND WHEN YOU HAVE GO THROUGH AND YOU ANALYZE THESE KINDS OF SCENARIOS, IMAGINE YOU'VE GOT A SCALE SITTING IN FRONT OF YOU AND YOU'VE GOT A BAG OF MARBLES AND YOU PUT THE MARBLES ON THE LEFT OR YOU PUT 'EM ON THE RIGHT AND YOU SEE WHICH WAY IT TILTS.
BUT THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE COURTS ARE DOING.
THEY'RE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT SOCIAL MEDIA AND THE FIRST AMENDMENT AND THE COURTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY ARE SPLIT.
AND SO WE HAVE A DIVIDED COUNTRY RIGHT NOW ON WHERE THIS FALLS DOWN.
YOU HAVE A CASE HERE WHERE YOU'VE GOT A DEPUTY SHERIFF GOES ON TO A PUBLICLY ACCESSIBLE UNION WEBSITE AND BASHES THEIR NEW BOSS AS, UH, LIKENING THE NEW ADMINISTRATION TO NAZIS.
ALRIGHT, WELL I'M QUESTIONING ANYBODY THAT COMPARES ANYTHING TO NAZIS UNLESS THEY'RE ACTUAL NAZIS.
BUT HE DID THAT ULTIMATELY WAS FIRED FOR THAT AND OTHER THINGS.
HE SUED CLAIMING FIRST AMENDMENT.
THE COURTS CAME BACK AND SAID NO, THE EMPLOYER WAS JUSTIFIED THAT THE COMMENTS THAT WERE MADE DID NOT HAVE ANY PUBLIC INTEREST.
AND THE FACT THAT HE WAS USING CURSE WORDS AND INSULTING LANGUAGE, DEVALUED HIS SPEECH.
UM, IF YOU GO ONLINE AND CURSE AND USE FOUL LANGUAGE AND SOMEBODY ACTS AGAINST YOU, YOU CAN CLAIM FIRST AMENDMENT, BUT IT'S LESS, IT'S LESS OF A FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT TO BE CRUDE AND CRASS.
PERHAPS 30 YEARS AGO IN PORT ARTHUR, WE COULD BUILD CONSENSUS ON WHAT IS COMMUNITY DECENCY STANDARDS.
NOW I BET IT'S REALLY, REALLY HARD IN MOST OF MY COMMUNITIES.
EVEN GOOD UPSTANDING, FAMILY ORIENTED, CHRIST LOVING COMMUNITIES DISAGREE.
LOOK AT OUR MUSIC, LOOK AT OUR COMEDY, LOOK AT OUR MOVIES.
AND SO, UM, I I'VE HAD CLIENTS SAY, GOD, WE GOTTA GO CLOSE DOWN THAT RESTAURANT BECAUSE YOU CAN LOOK THROUGH THEIR FRONT WINDOW AND SEE HORRIBLE LANGUAGE ON SIGNS ON THEIR WALLS.
AND I'M LIKE, I DON'T THINK WE CAN DO THAT ANYMORE.
THE TEXAS ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGE COMMISSION USED TO HAVE A PROVISION IN THEIR STATUTE THAT SAYS YOU CAN YANK THE PERMIT FROM A-T-A-B-C
[03:05:01]
LICENSE HOLDER IF THEY HAVE PROFOUND OBSCENE LANGUAGE THAT GOT REPEALED BECAUSE THEY GOT SUED AND THEY LOST WHY FIRST AMENDMENT AND WHAT'S OBSCENE TO ONE PERSON IS NOT NECESSARILY OBSCENE TO ANOTHER.AND SO IT'S GETTING HARDER AND HARDER TO DO THAT SORT OF THING.
I'M NOT SAYING DON'T DO IT, I'M JUST SAYING IT'S RISKIER THAN EVER BEFORE.
SO WHAT DID I DO? DID I FILE CRIMINAL COMPLAINTS AGAINST THAT RESTAURANT? BUT THE BUT THE FOUL LANGUAGE, NOPE.
WE WENT AND LEANED ON THE DOWNTOWN BUSINESS OWNERS ASSOCIATION, THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE, THE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION, AND THEY ALL WENT AND LEANED ON THE LANDLORD THAT HAD RENTED OUT THE SPACE FOR THE RESTAURANT AND WITHIN THREE MONTHS THEY WERE GONE.
AND IT'S A DIFFERENT RESTAURANT, NO FOUL OBNOXIOUS SIGNS THAT YOU CAN SEE THROUGH THE WINDOW.
SO MAYBE THERE'S A DIFFERENT WAY TO GET WHERE YOU WANT TO GO IF THE LAW DOESN'T PROVIDE YOU A LEGAL PATH.
DO WE HAVE A QUESTION? SOMETHING YOU SAID, UM, A FEW COMMENTS BACK ABOUT IT LOOKED WHEN THEY USED THE AL LANGUAGE, THEY LOST THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT.
RIGHT? THAT'S, THAT'S, UH, ALSO COINCIDE WITH HAPPENED YEARS AGO.
YES, YOU HAVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH, BUT YOU CAN'T, YOU'LL GO INTO A CROWDED THEATER AND YOU'LL FIRE EXACTLY.
UM, WE, WE REC WE HAVE LONG RECOGNIZED IN THIS NATION SOME LIMITATIONS ON THE FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT AND THINGS THAT INCITE VIOLENCE AND CAUSE HARM IS ONE OF THEM THREATENING TO HURT CERTAIN PEOPLE.
THERE ARE, THERE ARE PLENTY OF EXCEPTIONS.
BUT THEN YOU MOVE ON TO BLOCKING AND, AND BLOCKING'S GOING TO DEAL WITH SOME CURSE WORDS AND SOME, SOME, UH, OFFENSIVE LANGUAGE TOO.
UH, BRING UP PRESIDENT TRUMP BECAUSE HE IS THE MOST HIGH PROFILE PERSON TO HAVE LITIGATION DEALING WITH THIS TOPIC.
AND IT MATTERS NOT TO ME, WHETHER YOU SUPPORT THE PRESIDENT OR NOT, OR FORMER PRESIDENT OR FUTURE PRESIDENT OR NOT.
IT'S A GREAT CASE TO STUDY WHEN YOU DO THIS FOR A LIVING.
I BELIEVE THAT THE TWITTER HANDLE AT REAL DONALD TRUMP WAS ONCE UPON A TIME, A PRIVATE TWITTER ACCOUNT.
IT WAS PERSONAL TO HIM AS AN INDIVIDUAL AND HE COULD DO ALL SORTS OF THINGS WITH IT.
BUT AS IS THE CASE WITH SO MANY THINGS, IT CHANGED OVER TIME.
HE BECAME A CANDIDATE, THEN HE BECAME PRESIDENT, THEN HE STARTED USING IT AS PRESIDENT.
IF ALL HE DID WAS RESPOND TO TWEETS ABOUT MY WIFE'S FAVORITE THING ON SOCIAL MEDIA.
HAVE YOU SEEN A KITTEN VIDEO? OH MY GOD, THEY'RE HISTORICAL.
THOSE, THOSE, THOSE CRAZY CATS.
BUT HE DIDN'T, HE TALKED ABOUT ACTUAL POLICY.
HE TALKED ABOUT THE PANDEMIC MASK, FAUCI.
EVERYTHING THAT WAS UNDER HIS UMBRELLA AS PRESIDENT WOULD BE ADDRESSED.
AND IF HE DIDN'T LIKE YOUR RESPONSE, HE WOULD BLOCK YOU OR DELETE YOU.
AND SO I TALK ABOUT BLOCKING OR DELETING.
I THINK IT'S THE SAME THING FOR OUR PURPOSES.
SO IS HIDING WHERE IT'S STILL THERE, YOU'VE JUST HIDDEN IT AWAY FROM PUBLIC VIEW.
AND ULTIMATELY HE WAS SUED BY A SPECIAL INTEREST GROUP THAT HAS FIRST AMENDMENT IN THEIR NAME SO YOU KNOW WHAT THEY CARE ABOUT.
AND WHAT THE COURT FOUND IS THE SITE CHANGED.
IT WAS NO LONGER PERSONAL AND PRIVATE.
IT'S NOW AN OFFICIAL PUBLIC PRESIDENTIAL ACCOUNT.
AND THEREFORE, IF HE'S GOING TO PUT STUFF OUT THERE, HE HAS TO LISTEN TO CRITICISM.
AND SO YES, WE HAVE TO HAVE TOUGH SKINS.
THAT IS ONE WAY COMMUNICATION.
YOU'RE JUST TELLING THE CITIZENS THIS, THIS, THIS.
BUT ONCE YOU OPEN IT FOR THEM TO COMMENT, TO PRAISE YOU, THEN YOU'RE OPENING THE DOOR FOR THEM TO CRITICIZE YOU AS WELL.
NOW, CAN YOU DELETE IT WHEN THEIR, THEIR RESPONSE HAS FOUL LANGUAGE ON IT? MAYBE, PROBABLY IT'S A RISK.
YOU DECIDE WHETHER IT'S WORTH IT OR NOT.
UM, SOMETIMES IT'S WORTH JUST LETTING PEOPLE BE WHO THEY ARE SO THEIR NEIGHBORS CAN ALL JUDGE THEM FOR EXACTLY WHO THEY ARE.
ALRIGHT, WELL THOSE ARE TWO SEPARATE THINGS.
WE'RE DELETING IT FROM THIS LINE OF SOCIAL MEDIA.
GO BASH THE MAYOR ON SOME OTHER LINE OF SOCIAL MEDIA.
WHAT DOES YOUR POLICY SAY? IF YOU HAVE A POLICY, FOLLOW YOUR POLICY.
IF NOT, AND YOU'RE DELETING THINGS AND BLOCKING THINGS AD HOC, THAT'S A RISKY THING TO DO THESE DAYS.
AND UM, THIS IS, THIS IS A REALLY GOOD EXAMPLE FROM OUR FRIENDS IN VIRGINIA.
IT'S A COUNTY COMMISSIONER'S COURT.
THEY CALL 'EM A COUNTY BOARD OF SUPERVISORS.
IT'S THE SAME THING WE WOULD CALL A COUNTY COMMISSIONER'S COURT.
[03:10:01]
VERY SIMILAR KIND OF THING.UM, SOMEONE'S PERSONAL, PRIVATE SOCIAL MEDIA ACCOUNT CAN BECOME SOMETHING DIFFERENT AS TIME GOES ON.
THEY'RE GONNA BE LOOKING FOR THINGS.
IF YOU GET TO COURT, LIKE WHAT ARE YOUR DUTIES? ARE THOSE MENTIONED ON YOUR, WE USE FACEBOOK.
ARE THOSE MENTIONED ON YOUR FACEBOOK? ARE YOU USING IT TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOUR CONSTITUENTS? ARE YOU ASKING YOUR CONSTITUENTS TO GIVE YOU FEEDBACK? ARE YOU ACTUALLY CONDUCTING BUSINESS THIS WAY? IF SO, IT'S UNCONSTITUTIONAL TO BLOCK, DELETE, HIDE, OR BAN THOSE USERS BECAUSE THAT'S CONTENT BASED DISCRIMINATION.
CONTENT BASED DISCRIMINATION MEANS IT'S SUBJECT TO STRICT SCRUTINY.
YOUR CITY ATTORNEY'S EYES ARE ROLLING THE BACK OF HER HEAD BECAUSE OH MY GOSH, WE'RE GETTING INTO CONSTITUTIONAL ANALYSIS.
BUT WE KNOW THAT WHENEVER THE GOVERNMENT ACTION IS MEASURED BY THE STRICT SCRUTINY TEST, WE LOSE.
'CAUSE WE NEVER EVER OVERCOME THAT TEST.
YOU GOTTA SHOW YOU DID THE LEAST AMOUNT YOU COULD TO ACHIEVE THIS COMPELLING, REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT GOVERNMENT OBJECTIVE.
AND THAT'S A HARD STANDARD TO OVERCOME.
THE, THE, THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE BOARD OF SUPERVISORS IN VIRGINIA GAVE US THIS GREAT CASE.
AND, UM, SHE BLOCKED A CITIZEN WHO WAS ACCUSING HER AND, AND THE BOARD OF ILLEGAL EXPENDITURES, AN ANETH ETHICAL BEHAVIOR.
YOU CAN SEE HER FACEBOOK PAGE FOR YOURSELVES RIGHT THERE ON THE FRONT.
IT SAYS LOUDOUN COUNTY, VIRGINIA.
THAT'S LIKE PUTTING YOUR NICE SAILBOAT ON YOUR FACEBOOK PAGE.
ONCE YOU'VE DONE THAT, THAT'S A MARBLE IN FAVOR OF YOUR FACEBOOK PAGE BEING A PUBLIC SITE USED FOR GOVERNING PURPOSES AND SUBJECT TO GOVERNING RULES.
YOU LOOK AT HER UNDER HER NAME, IT'S GOT HER TITLE CHAIR, IMAGINE IT SAYS MAYOR, CHIEF COUNCIL MEMBER, CITY ATTORNEY.
THAT'S ANOTHER MARBLE IN FAVOR OF THIS BEING A PUBLIC SITE.
IT'S GOT HER WORK PHONE NUMBER, HER WORK, URL, UH, LOTS OF COUNTY BUSINESS ON THIS SITE.
SO NOW IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW MUCH SHE POSTS ABOUT HER GRANDKIDS OR FLUFFY KITTENS CHASING THAT LITTLE LASER POINTER, SHE HAS TURNED HER PERSONAL SITE INTO A PUBLIC SITE.
THIS AFFECTS US IN TEXAS SOMETIMES.
IT WAS A SHOCK TO ME TO SEE THAT.
OUR FRIENDS IN, UM, LET'S SEE, GRAND PRAIRIE, GRAPEVINE, GRANBURY.
Y'ALL KNOW WHERE GRANBURY IS UP IN DFW.
LAKE GRANBURY BEAUTIFUL PLACE.
I SEE ONLINE A VIDEO ON YOUTUBE OF THE ETHICS HEARING WHERE THE CITY MANAGER OF GRANBURY BROUGHT AN ETHICS COMPLAINT AGAINST THE MAYOR OF GRANBERRY.
'CAUSE THE MAYOR OF GRANBERRY PUT THINGS ON FACEBOOK THAT VIOLATE GRAN BARRY'S ETHICS CODE.
THE CITY MANAGER GOES, I HAVE A CODE OF ETHICS UNDER ICMA THAT OBLIGATES ME TO REPORT WHEN I SEE UNETHICAL BEHAVIOR.
I TALKED TO THE MAYOR, HE DIDN'T TAKE IT DOWN.
SO I'M WATCHING THE HEARING ONLINE.
I SEE THE LAWYER FOR THE MAYOR.
I SEE THE LAWYER THE CITY HIRED TO REPRESENT THE CITY MANAGER.
A FRIEND OF MINE, I SEE THE LAWYER, THE CITY HIRED TO REPRESENT THE BOARD OF ETHICS.
I WATCHED THIS WHOLE HEARING AND I'M SO ANGRY 'CAUSE OF ALL THOSE LAWYERS, I WAS NOT ONE OF THEM.
I DIDN'T GET ONE SINGLE DIME FROM THIS WHOLE SILLY THING.
THE MAYOR TESTIFIED AND HE WAS, HE IS A A A SENIOR CITIZEN AGED PERSON.
WHY? 'CAUSE I DON'T KNOW HOW TO ACCESS IT.
I DON'T UNDERSTAND FACEBOOK OR THE INTERNET.
WELL, WHO DOES IT? THAT STARTED OFF TO BE MY CAMPAIGN SITE.
I HAD CAMPAIGN AIDS HELPING ME WHEN I RAN FOR OFFICE.
WHEN I GOT ELECTED, THEY JUST CONVERTED IT TO THE MAYOR'S SITE.
WAIT A MINUTE, I CAN CALL MY WIFE AND I CAN ASK HER THE PASSWORD.
AND, AND I DON'T REPRESENT GRANBURY.
I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM.
IT'S A HORRIBLE EXAMPLE EXCEPT FOR IT'S A GREAT STORY.
IT'S A GREAT STORY OF HOW THINGS CHANGE AND HOW THAT CAN CAUSE A LOT OF CONTROVERSY, A LOT OF MONEY BEING SPENT ON LAWYERS FOR SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE JUST DIDN'T REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS GOING ON.
HERE'S ANOTHER ONE FROM TEXAS HUNT COUNTY SHERIFF.
MY GOSH, WHAT A, WHAT A BRILLIANT WORDSMITH.
THE SHERIFF ADOPTED A SOCIAL MEDIA POLICY SAYING ANY POST FILLED WITH FOUL LANGUAGE HATE SPEECH OF ALL TYPES AND COMMENTS THAT ARE CONSIDERED INAPPROPRIATE WILL BE REMOVED.
NICE AND SIMPLE, COMPLETELY UNCONSTITUTIONAL, WHO KNOWS WHAT'S INAPPROPRIATE, WHO KNOWS WHAT'S OFFENSIVE, AND TO BAN THEM AND
[03:15:01]
BLOCK THEM.SURE ENOUGH, SOME PEOPLE PUT SOME THINGS ON THE SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT WEBSITE.
AND SO THIS IS A FORM OF A PUBLIC CENSORSHIP THAT WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO ENGAGE IN UNDER THE FIRST AMENDMENT.
NOW I'M TELLING Y'ALL ABOUT THIS BECAUSE I WANT YOU TO, UH, DO BETTER YOURSELVES.
LOOK OUT FOR THE CITY OF PORT ARTHUR AND ALSO KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE NEWS.
'CAUSE THERE ARE TWO CASES PENDING BEFORE THE, UH, SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES ON THIS ISSUE OF INDIVIDUAL CITY OFFICIALS, GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS BLOCKING AND DELETING BECAUSE NOT ALL OF THE FEDERAL APPELLATE COURTS AGREE ON THIS.
THE SUPREME COURT TOOK UP THE OPPORTUNITY TO LAY DOWN THE LAW OF THE LAND FOR THE WHOLE COUNTRY.
AND SO WE'LL BE LEARNING MORE ABOUT THIS.
THE RULES MAY CHANGE, UH, IN, IN THE FUTURE.
I HAVE MY DOUBTS THAT THE, THE SUPREME COURT IS GONNA BE MORE TOLERANT OF DELETING SPEECH THAT WE DON'T WANT TO SEE OR HEAR.
AND SO THAT IS IT FOR THE PORTION ON SOCIAL MEDIA.
DO YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS? YES, SIR.
THE CONCEPT OF WHAT IS DEEMED INAPPROPRIATE OR THE LINES OF WHAT IS AN OPINION VERSUS WHAT'S FACTUAL? WHO IS THE BEARER TO DETERMINE WHAT IS CONSIDERED SOMEONE'S OPINION AND WHAT IS ACTUALLY FACTS, WHAT YOU CAN PROVE IN, IN WHAT CONTEXT? YOU GAVE THE EXAMPLE OF THE SHERIFF AND HE SAID WHATEVER IS DEEMED, I DON'T WANNA MISSPEAK.
ANY POST FILLED WITH FILE LANGUAGE, HATE SPEECH AND ALL TYPES OF COMMENTS THAT ARE CONSIDERED INAPPROPRIATE WILL BE REMOVED OR BANNED.
UM, WE ASKED THE QUESTION, WHAT'S DEEMED INAPPROPRIATE WHEN SOMEONE IS MAKING AN OPINION ON SOCIAL MEDIA VERSUS SOMEONE WHO'S PROVIDING MISINFORMATION LIES ON SOCIAL MEDIA.
WHO IS THE BEAR TO THE, THE, THE, WHO IS THE PERSON THAT DETERMINES WHAT IS CONSIDERED AN OPINION AND WHAT IS CONSIDERED A LIE TO DEEM IT INAPPROPRIATE? POSSIBLY NOBODY.
I MEAN, YOU CAN START WITH ZERO.
THE CITY OF PORT ARTHUR HAS NO OBLIGATION TO HAVE ANY SOCIAL MEDIA.
YOU AS INDIVIDUALS, CITY OFFICIALS HAVE NO OBLIGATION TO HAVE ANY CITY OFFIC, UH, CITY, UM, SOCIAL MEDIA.
IF YOU DO THAT AND ENGAGE IN IT, YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE ANYONE POLICING IT.
AND THE PUBLIC GETS TO DECIDE.
UM, IF YOU'RE GOING TO DO SOMETHING, I WOULD SAY HAVE THE CITY COUNCIL ADOPT A POLICY AND DESIGNATE SOMEBODY, NOT CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS TO DO IT.
AND GIVE THEM SOME STANDARDS AND SOME RULES.
AND THEN I'D ALSO ASK THAT YOU GIVE THEM YOUR SUPPORT.
'CAUSE THAT'S A RISKY JOB TO DO.
IF YOU GO OUT THERE DELETING FILTERING OR REBUTTING RESPONDING TO WHAT PEOPLE PUT ON SOCIAL MEDIA, THAT THAT POSITION HAS A LIGHTNING ROD ON ITS HEAD.
AND I WOULD HOPE THAT THAT PERSON HAS GOT, YOU KNOW, SOME JOB SECURITY, UH, BECAUSE THEY'RE DOING A TOUGH JOB.
OTHERWISE YOU DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE TO DO ANYTHING.
UM, AND, AND, AND I, I HAVE, YOU KNOW, AND I HAVE MY OWN PREFERENCES, PART OF PARTLY DICTATED BY WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT AND PARTLY OUT OF MY SENSE OF SURVIVAL.
AND SO SOMETIMES WHEN SOMEONE OUT THERE IS BEING VERY CRITICAL OF, OF THE CITY AND BASHING US AND SAYING A LOT OF THINGS THAT ARE WRONG, I DO RESPOND, BUT NOT TO THEM.
I WRITE A LETTER TO THE MAYOR, MAYOR, I'VE HEARD IT SAID THAT THIS, AND HERE'S THE FACTS AND HERE'S THE TRUTH AND HERE'S COPIES.
AND THE MAYOR GOES, OH, LOOK AT WHAT I GOT FROM THE CITY ATTORNEY.
PUT, PUT A LINK TO IT ON SOCIAL MEDIA.
I DON'T NAME THE PERSON THAT'S OUT THERE SPREADING ALL THE GARBAGE.
I TRUST SMART CITIZENS TO PIECE IT TOGETHER THEMSELVES.
AND IF THE CITY IS PROVIDING A STEADY GUIDE OF TRUTH, AND HOPEFULLY FOLKS WILL TRUST US EVEN IF THEY DON'T LIKE WHAT WE HAVE TO SAY.
DID HIS MIC TURN OFF? I THINK.
WE JUST HAVE TO HAVE IT RECORDED.
SO AGAIN, IT'S JUST, IT'S JUST MY MO THAT I, I DO HELP NOT JUST WRITE PRESS RELEASES OR LETTERS OR MAYBE I'LL WRITE A LEGAL MEMO THAT THE CLIENT INTENDS TO RELEASE, BUT I DON'T NECESSARILY NAME THE PERSON WHO'S CRITICIZING THE CITY IN PART 'CAUSE I
[03:20:01]
DON'T WANNA MAKE IT PERSONAL.AND ONCE YOU MAKE IT PERSONAL, WHAT'S THE OLD SAYING? YOU NEVER EVER WRESTLE A PIG IN PART BECAUSE YOU'LL BOTH GET DIRTY, DIRTY AND THE PIG ACTUALLY ENJOYS IT.
I, I DON'T LIKE EITHER ONE OF THOSE TWO THINGS, BUT I WILL HELP CLIENTS TELL THE CITIZENS THE TRUTH.
AND THEN IF SOMEONE'S OUT THERE LYING OR SPREADING FALSEHOODS, LET THE ELECTORATE JUDGE THEM.
THAT'S NOT IN MY JOB DESCRIPTION TO GO TAKE SOMEBODY OUT.
UM, I DON'T KNOW WHOSE JOB DESCRIPTION THAT WOULD BE, BUT SOCIAL MEDIA TROLLS THAT THAT'S A, A DANGEROUS THING.
THEY THINK THEY'RE CITIZEN JOURNALISTS.
THEY THINK THEY'RE SAVING DEMOCRACY AND THEY, AND THEY BELIEVE THAT, WELL, I'M NOT THERE TO FIGHT OR ARGUE OR TALK THEM OUT OF IT.
BUT I WILL SPEAK PUBLICLY OR WRITE PUBLICLY ABOUT WHAT THE TRUTH IS.
HOPING THAT MOST REASONABLE PEOPLE IN TOWN, THE BUSINESS OWNERS AND THE VOTERS WILL BE ABLE TO SORT THROUGH IT.
IT'S GETTING HARD THESE DAYS TO SORT THROUGH IT.
I CALL 'EM INTERNET GANGSTERS.
INTERNET GANGSTERS,
BUT THEY, THEY, THEY THINK, THEY THINK THEY'RE INTERNET GLADIATORS.
THEY, THEY THINK THEY'RE CHAMPIONS.
THEY'RE WARRIORS ON THE SIDE OF WHATEVER.
AND I'LL NEVER TALK THEM OUT OF IT.
UM, SO I TRY NOT TO ENGAGE THEM CERTAINLY ON SOCIAL MEDIA.
WILL YOU PLEASE SHARE SOME SOCIAL MEDIA POLICIES THAT OTHER CITIES HAVE WITH OUR CITY ATTORNEYS SO WE CAN HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO REVIEW THEM? YES.
IS THAT IT FOR SOCIAL MEDIA? WANNA DO
[II.3. Ethics;]
ETHICS NEXT? ETHICS CAN'T.IF IT'S, IF IT IS LIKE TRUST YOU, I'LL TELL ME IF WE NEED A BREAK AT ANY POINT.
WHY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT THIS QUOTING BILLY JOEL? IT'S A MATTER OF TRUST.
I'VE BEEN A PROSECUTOR MYSELF BEFORE.
UH, WHEN WE ADOPT ALL THESE RULES AND LAWS, WE NEED MOST PEOPLE TO COMPLY WITH THEM.
THE WHOLE SYSTEM IS BASED ON VOLUNTARY COMPLIANCE.
ONLY HAVING TO PROSECUTE OR SUE THE VERY FEW THAT BREAK THE RULES FOR THEM TO COMPLY WITH WHAT Y'ALL DO.
WE NEED THEM TO TRUST US, WHICH MEANS WE NEED TO ACT IN A WAY THAT INSPIRES TRUST.
WE TO CONDUCT OURSELVES IN A TRUSTWORTHY WAY.
NOTHING IN TEXAS LAW REQUIRES YOU TO HAVE A CODE OF ETHICS, BUT YOU'VE CHOSEN TO HAVE ONE.
UH, THERE ARE SOME STATE LAWS AS IF YOU CAN LEGISLATE ETHICAL BEHAVIOR.
WELL, WE'VE TRIED TO DO THAT TO AN EXTENT IN TEXAS AND WE WILL TALK ABOUT THAT.
BUT WHAT I WOULD HOPE IS THAT EVERYONE, WHETHER IT'S AN EMPLOYEE, A VOLUNTEER, OR AN ELECTED OFFICIAL IN PORT ARTHUR IS SERVING IN A WAY THAT INSPIRES TRUST.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE STATS ON THE SCREEN FROM GALLUP, THESE ARE NOT SHOCKING.
I'VE BEEN TRACKING THESE SINCE MY FIRST ETHICS TALK, WHICH I BELIEVE WAS IN 1999 FOR THE CITY ATTORNEY ASSOCIATION.
EVERY YEAR I GO AND LOOK AT THE MOST RECENT POLL.
INCREASINGLY, NO MATTER WHO'S IN OFFICE, AMERICANS DON'T TRUST THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO TAKE CARE OF THEIR PROBLEMS. THEY TRUST THE STATE A LITTLE BIT MORE AND THEY TRUST LOCAL GOVERNMENTS A LOT MORE.
WHICH IS SHOCKING IF YOU EVER GO TO AUSTIN DURING THE LEGISLATIVE SESSION.
'CAUSE IF YOU LISTEN TO THEM, IT SOUNDS LIKE WE'RE ALL THE S SCALLYWAGS AND THEY'RE SAVING TEXAS FROM US.
THAT'S NOT WHAT THE PUBLIC OPINION POLLS SAY.
AND SO AS WE TRY TO INSPIRE MORE TRUST AND GIVE OUR REASONS, GIVE OUR CITIZENS A REASONS TO FOLLOW US, EVEN IF THEY DON'T LIKE US OR DISAGREE WITH US, ETHICAL BEHAVIOR HELPS.
AND I THINK YOU CAN BE A VERY ETHICAL PERSON WITHOUT ASCRIBING TO ANY PARTICULAR CODE OF ETHICS OR JUST BEING AFRAID OF GOING TO JAIL.
WHICH I DON'T THINK MOST PEOPLE WALK AROUND FEELING THAT WAY.
SO WE'RE GONNA COVER A FEW THINGS.
AND THE FIRST ONE IS JUST SORT OF WHAT ARE COMMON CODES THAT OFTEN GUIDE US IN WHAT WE DO IN A REGULAR DAY? NOW I OFTEN ASK PEOPLE TO THINK FOR JUST A MOMENT, WHAT WAS THE EARLIEST CODE OF CONDUCT YOU KNEW OF? WHAT WAS THE FIRST CODE THAT GOVERNED YOU WHEN YOU STEPPED FOOT OUTSIDE YOUR HOUSE? DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU.
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GOOD ONE.AND I'VE TOLD PEOPLE THAT WAS THE FIRST ONE TOO.
UH, THE ETHICS OF RECIPROCITY.
TREAT PEOPLE AS YOU WOULD LIKE TO BE TREATED.
DON'T TREAT PEOPLE LIKE YOU, WOULD NOT WANT TO BE TREATED.
WHEN YOU ASK OTHER PEOPLE WHAT'S THE OLDEST CODE OF ETHICS YOU CAN THINK OF FOR MANY, PARTICULARLY IF THEY HAVE A A JUDEO-CHRISTIAN BACKGROUND, MAYBE THEY POINT TO THE 10 COMMANDMENTS AND YEP.
I GOT THE 10 COMMANDMENTS ON THE TEXAS CAPITOL GROUNDS WITH THE FLAG ACTUALLY FLAPPING IN THE BREEZE.
THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN ALL THE TIME.
AND SO WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE 10 COMMANDMENTS, WHAT CAN CITY OFFICIALS TAKE FROM THAT? WELL, NOT STEALING'S A PRETTY GOOD ONE.
CAN Y'ALL BE IN PUBLIC SERVICE AND NOT STEAL? I LIKE THAT.
UH, CAN YOU NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS? TELL THE TRUTH.
UH, I ONCE HEARD A MUSICIAN SAY, WE DON'T NEED 10 COMMANDMENTS.
THEY SHOULD HAVE JUST HAD ONE COMMANDMENT.
OKAY, WELL WHEN YOU LOOK DOWN THIS LIST, YEAH, I KIND OF CAN PUT EACH ONE OF THOSE IN THAT BUCKET.
SO I WOULD LIKE TO IMPRESS EVERYONE AND SAY THAT THE FIRST ETHICAL RULE I HAD WAS THE GOLDEN RULE OF THE 10 COMMANDMENTS.
I'D BE LYING TO YOU AND LYING DURING AN ETHICS TALK IS A BIG PROBLEM.
MY FIRST ETHICS RULE WAS BETTY'S LAW.
SHE PASSED AWAY FIVE YEARS AGO AND SHE WAS THE MOTHER.
I LIKE THAT SHE WAS THE MOTHER OF SEVEN KIDS.
AND THE BIGGEST OFFENSE YOU COULD EVER MAKE WAS EMBARRASSING HER IN PUBLIC BEING DRAGGED OUTTA MASS.
ONE DAY DOWN THE HALLWAY DURING SERVICES, THE PREACHER SAID, JESUS SAID, BRING ONTO ME ALL THE CHILDREN.
I'M SURE I'M, I'M NOT PHRASING THAT CORRECTLY.
AND SHE LOOKED OVER HER SHOULDER, SHE GOES, NOT THIS ONE PADRE.
HE'S GOING TO THE PARKING LOT WITH ME.
AND I WAS DONE WITH CHURCH FOR THE DAY.
THAT WAS THE BIGGEST OFFENSE WE COULD MAKE.
AND THAT ONE STILL SERVES ME WELL.
I'VE GONE THROUGH MOST OF MY CAREER WITH BETTY'S LAW.
SHE WAS NOT GONNA OPEN UP THE NEWSPAPER OR THE INTERNET AND SEE WHAT TROUBLE HER SON HAD GOTTEN INTO THAT DAY.
AND WHEN SHE PASSED ON, THAT'S OKAY.
I'VE GOT A DAUGHTER, IT'S THE SAME THING.
I'M NOT GOING TO SOIL IT FOR HER.
I DON'T NEED THE TEXAS DISCIPLINARY RULES OF PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT THAT GOVERNED LAWYERS.
I DON'T NEED THE TEXAS PENAL CODE.
I'M NOT GONNA EMBARRASS MY MOM.
I'M NOT GONNA EMBARRASS MY DAUGHTER.
DO WE NEED ANYTHING ELSE? APPARENTLY WE'VE GOT A LOT OF ETHICS RULES.
AND SO FOR THOSE OF YOU THAT GOVERN CITY HALL, REST ASSURED YOU'VE GOT LOTS OF CODES OF ETHICS THAT GOVERN YOUR STAFF.
AND I NEVER LEARNED THESE RULES UNTIL AS A CITY ATTORNEY I WAS GETTING INVOLVED IN HR PROBLEMS, HAVING TO HELP DISCIPLINE EMPLOYEES.
AND I WOULD SEE THAT THEY WERE VIOLATING THEIR OWN PROFESSIONAL CODES OF ETHICS.
AND SO THANK YOU FOR SPENDING MONEY TO LET YOUR STAFF DO TRAINING.
'CAUSE THAT OFTEN INCLUDES ETHICS TRAINING.
I LIKE ICMA, I'M AN HONORARY MEMBER OF THE INTERNATIONAL COUNTY CITY MANAGEMENT ASSOCIATION.
IT'S ONE OF THE ONLY PROFESSIONAL GROUPS I KNOW OF IN THE MUNICIPAL WORLD THAT ACTIVELY POLICE EACH OTHER.
AND THEY WILL KICK YOU OUT OF THE ORGANIZATION IF YOU VIOLATE THEIR CODES OF ETHICS.
SO TCMA, THE TEXAS VERSION FOLLOWS THE EXACT SAME CODE OF ETHICS.
ONE THING I THOUGHT IS INTERESTING ABOUT THEIRS, THEY MUST REFRAIN FROM ALL POLITICAL ACTIVITIES.
I USED TO GO TO FUNDRAISERS AND I'D GO DROP OFF A CHECK FOR THIS STATE REP OR THIS STATE SENATOR.
I'D INVITE A CITY MANAGER ALONG.
HE'S LIKE, YEAH, I'D LOVE TO COME WITH YOU FOR THE CRACKERS AND CHEESE, BUT NO THANK YOU.
I DON'T GO TO POLITICAL FUNDRAISERS.
OKAY, MAYBE NOW THAT I'M AN HONOR MEMBER, I CAN USE THAT EXCUSE TOO.
I ALSO LIKE THIS NOTION OF SHOWING FAIRNESS AND IMPARTIALITY WHEN PRESENTING MATERIALS TO THE CITY COUNCIL FOR THEIR DECISIONS.
THEY'LL MAKE A RECOMMENDATION, THEY'LL GIVE YOU THEIR OPINION, BUT THEN YOU GET TO MAKE THE DECISION.
I'M VERY CLOSE TO CITY SECRETARIES.
MUNICIPAL CLERKS HAVE BEEN A BIG PART OF MY CAREER.
THEY PUBLISHED MY LITTLE BLACK BOOK OVER THERE WITH THE GOLD LETTERS ON IT.
UH, ONE THING THAT AMAZES ME ABOUT THEIR GROUP, THEY'RE THE ONLY ONE I KNOW OF THAT SAYS, THOU SHALL CONDUCT YOURSELF IN PUBLIC AND IN PRIVATE AS A WAY TO BE AN EXAMPLE TO YOUR CITIZENS.
AND I WAS ONCE AT A MUNICIPAL CLERK FUNCTION WHERE AFTER A LONG DAY OF BORING SEMINARS AND LAWYERS LIKE ME TALKING, THEY WERE ALL GATHERED AT THE, AT THE TAVERN THERE ON THE FIRST FLOOR OF THE HOTEL.
AND ONE OF THEIR MEMBERS, A MUNICIPAL CLERK FROM THE DALLAS AREA WAS HAD MAYBE HAD A DRINK TOO MANY AND WAS BEING WAY, WAY OVERLY FRIENDLY WITH THE LOCALS.
AND EVENTUALLY I, SO I HAD MY ONE BEER AND I WENT TO BED AS IS MY PRACTICE.
AND I HEARD THE NEXT MORNING OVER BREAKFAST THAT THE BOARD MEMBERS TOOK THAT CLERK AND SAID, YOU'RE
[03:30:01]
GOING TO BED NOW.AND WALKED HER TO THE ELEVATORS AND GOT HER IN HER ROOM AND SAID, YOU ARE HERE ON THE CITY'S DIME.
YOU'RE HERE AS A PUBLIC OFFICIAL AND YOU'RE REPRESENTING US.
WE ALL NEED TO UNWIND EVERY NOW AND THEN.
THIS IS NOT THE TIME OR PLACE.
AND I THOUGHT BRAVO A PROFESSIONAL GROUP POLICED ITSELF.
THEY DIDN'T NEED A HEARING, THEY DIDN'T NEED A MEETING.
THEY JUST TOOK CARE OF BUSINESS AND UPHELD THEIR CODE OF ETHICS.
AND SO I'VE GOT A LOT OF RESPECT FOR WHAT YOUR CLERKS DO AND THE CODE THAT THEY ENFORCE UPON THEMSELVES.
ONCE AT A TML CONFERENCE, SEVERAL OF YOU MENTIONED TML.
THIS WAS MY 26TH TML CONFERENCE IN A ROW BACK IN OCTOBER.
AND ONE DAY I WAS FEELING COCKY.
I WALKED UP TO THE BOOTH IN THE EXHIBIT HALL FOR THE BUILDING OFFICIALS ASSOCIATION OF TEXAS, YOUR BUILDING INSPECTORS, YOUR CODE ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS.
AND I SAID, HEY, DO Y'ALL HAVE A CODE OF ETHICS? THE DUDE REACHED UNDER HIS TABLE AND HANDED ME A COPY.
'CAUSE YOU THINK ABOUT THIS PROFESSION, YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT THE BAD OLD DAYS, CHICAGO, NEW YORK, WHATEVER, MAYBE HOUSTON.
OH, YOU WANT TO BUILD SOMETHING? WHERE'S THE BRIBE? MY WIFE LOVES THE MOVIE MONEY PIT.
YOU EVER SEE THE OLD TOM HANKS MOVIE MONEY PIT? THE INSPECTOR WILL NOT COME OUT UNLESS YOU'VE GOT THE CASH.
THAT IS THE WAY THINGS USED TO BE DONE.
AND THANK GOODNESS WE'VE GOT BUILDING OFFICIALS IN TEXAS THAT HAVE AN ASSOCIATION.
THEY HAVE TRAINING, THEY HAVE A CODE OF ETHICS.
AND THEY SPECIFICALLY TALK ABOUT YOU WILL NOT TAKE ANY GRATUITIES OR FAVORS FOR DOING YOUR JOB.
NOW, AM I SO STRICT THAT I THINK YOU CAN'T GIVE SOMEBODY A PLATE OF BROWNIES AT THANKSGIVING OR A TRAY OF ENCHILADAS AT CHRISTMAS? NO, I THINK THAT'S SILLY.
AND I'VE HAD CITY COUNCILS ADOPT ETHICS RULES SAYING WHENEVER ANY EMPLOYEE OR DEPARTMENT'S GIVEN A GIFT OF FOOD, IT WILL GO IN THE LOBBY SO THAT ALL CITIZENS CAN COME PARTICIPATE.
EW, I DON'T WANT FOOD THAT CITIZENS HAVE BEEN BREATHING ON ALL DAY.
EITHER LET ME HAVE IT OR DON'T LET ME HAVE IT.
UH, WHERE DO I USUALLY SEE IT? POLICE AND FIRE.
SOMETIMES OUR CITIZENS FEEL REALLY GENEROUS TO POLICE AND FIRE.
AND I THINK THAT'S OKEY-DOKEY.
BUT SOME CITY COUNCILS DO NOT.
CITY OF LAKEWAY PASSED A RULE SAYING, NO, NO EMPLOYEE, INCLUDING POLICE AND FIRE, CAN EVER GET A FREE MEAL, A FREE DONUT, A FREE ANYTHING.
WE PAY YOU ENOUGH TO BUY YOUR OWN.
AND I WAS LIKE, OKAY, THAT'S Y'ALL DOING THAT? I DIDN'T RECOMMEND THAT AT ALL.
BUT AGAIN, COMMUNITIES TO AN EXTENT GET TO DECIDE THEIR OWN RULES AND HAVE THEIR OWN CONVERSATIONS WITH THEIR OWN DEPARTMENT HEADS.
AND THE FINAL ONE IS A PAI GOT A LOT OF RESPECT FOR YOUR PLANNERS THAT ARE MEMBERS OF THE AMERICAN PLANNING ASSOCIATION.
IF YOU'RE A ICP, YOU'VE GOT A CODE OF ETHICS.
THERE IS NO LAW IN TEXAS SAYING CITY EMPLOYEES CAN'T MOONLIGHT AND BOY, GOOD LUCK TRYING TO KEEP POLICE AND FIRE FROM MOONLIGHTING.
RIGHT? THEY OFTEN BUILD THAT IN AND THEIR SCHEDULES AND THEIR DEPARTMENTS ARE CONDUCIVE TO THAT.
THIS SAYS YOU CAN'T MOONLIGHT WITHOUT PERMISSION.
IT ALSO HAS LIMITATIONS ON YOU DOING WORK ON PROJECTS THAT BENEFIT YOUR FAMILY.
AND SO WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT INSIDER INFORMATION, INSIDER TRADING, BOY DON'T OUR PLANNERS KNOW WHERE ALL THE NEW ROADS ARE GOING, THE NEW PIPES ARE GOING, THE NEW HOUSES ARE GOING WHERE THE INVESTMENTS COULD GO.
OH MY GOSH, I WISH, I WISH I COULD HAVE BEEN THE KIND OF PERSON TO INVEST IN WHERE SOME OF MY CLIENTS WERE GONNA REDEVELOP.
'CAUSE THEN I COULD RETIRE YOUNG, BUT I CAN'T RETIRE YOUNG.
SO I'M HAPPY TO BE IN PORT ARTHUR TODAY.
I THINK THAT, THAT, THAT USED TO BE A RULE HERE.
THAT'S IT'S STILL PROBABLY IN PLACE ON CITY MANAGER, UH, OFF DUTY.
THE CHIEF STILL REGULATES THAT.
CHIEFS OFTEN REGULATE IT AND THEY CAN HAVE THEIR OWN RULES.
YOU CAN'T WORK OFF DUTY BUT YOU CAN'T WORK, YOU KNOW, IN A SEXUALLY ORIENTED BUSINESS.
OR YOU CAN'T WORK IN A BUSINESS THAT HAS A-T-A-B-C ALCOHOL PERMIT OR YOU CAN'T USE YOUR CITY CAR EQUIPMENT OR UNIFORM CHIEFS OFTEN HAVE THEIR OWN PERSONNEL RULES THAT COVER THAT.
THE STATE HAS A RULE FOR STATE EMPLOYEES ABILITY TO MOONLIGHT AND REVOLVING DOOR, BUT, BUT NOT US.
CHIEFS ASSOCIATIONS, FINANCE ASSOCIATIONS.
SOME OF THESE YOU LOOK AT, THEIR CODE OF ETHICS ACTUALLY HAS SOME PROVISIONS THAT ARE BORDERLINE DEI, DIVERSITY, EQUITY AND INCLUSION PROVISIONS.
AND OUR MUNICIPAL CLERKS JUST AMENDED THEIR CODE OF ETHICS FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 20 YEARS AND ADDED THEIR OWN DEI PROVISION TO IT.
AND SO KUDOS TO THEM FOR THAT.
SO IT SHOULD BRING YOU AS THE GOVERNING BODY AND YOUR CITIZENS A BE A BIT OF RELIEF TO KNOW THAT SO MANY OF YOUR EMPLOYEES BELONG TO ASSOCIATIONS THAT HAVE THEIR OWN CODE OF ETHICS IN ADDITION TO STATE LAW IN ADDITION TO ANYTHING THAT YOUR ETHICS CODE SAYS.
SO TALKING ABOUT STATE LAW, THAT'S A BIG ONE.
UM, LOTS OF MISUNDERSTANDING ON SOME OF THESE.
I'LL BREEZE THROUGH THE ONES THAT COME UP MOST OFTEN.
YOU HEAR THE WORD CONFLICT OF INTEREST THROWN AROUND ALL THE TIME.
IT USED TO BE A JUDGE KNEW IT WHEN
[03:35:01]
THEY SAW IT, BUT THEN IT GOT CODIFIED.CHAPTER 1 71 OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT CODE IS THE STATE LAW AND CONFLICT OF INTEREST.
IF IT'S NOT ABOUT MONEY, 1 71 DOESN'T APPLY.
DO YOU OWN STOCK? DO YOU WORK THERE? DO YOU OWN REAL ESTATE? IF YOU DON'T MEET THOSE THRESHOLD BULLETS THAT I'VE GOT UP THERE ON THE SCREEN, THERE IS NO CONFLICT OF INTEREST.
IF YOU DO HAVE A CONFLICT OF INTEREST, WHAT MUST YOU DO? THE DEAL'S DEAD.
NO, THE DEAL CAN GO FORWARD, BUT YOU MUST DISCLOSE IT IN WRITING A SWORN AFFIDAVIT.
YOU GIVE YOUR CITY SECRETARY, WHICH BECOMES A PUBLIC RECORD AND YOU MUST REFRAIN FROM TALKING ABOUT IT AND VOTING ON IT.
WELL, ALAN, CAN I SIT AT THE DIES QUIETLY? YES YOU CAN.
WELL, CAN I STEP DOWN FROM THE DAIS AND THEN WALK UP TO THE PODIUM AND TELL EVERYONE WHAT I THINK? PLEASE DON'T.
CAN I GO BACK DOWN TO THE FOURTH FLOOR OR THIRD FLOOR OR THE FIRST FLOOR AND BUG STAFF ABOUT IT? PLEASE DON'T.
UH, IF IT'S YOUR PROJECT, GET SOMEBODY ELSE TO CHAMPION IT FOR YOU.
YOU'VE CHOSEN TO BE AN ELECTED OFFICIAL THEN BE THAT.
OH, I TOOK OFF MY CITY COUNCIL HAT AND PUT ON MY PRIVATE CITIZEN HAT.
YEAH, I'M NOT SURE THAT EVER WORKED VERY WELL.
YOU ARE A PUBLIC OFFICIAL 24 7.
AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, MY DAD WAS A LION.
GO VOLUNTEER FOR THE LIONS CLUB.
MY DAD WAS WAS GRAHAM PUBA OF THE AMERICAN LEGION.
IF YOU'RE GONNA BE IN PUBLIC OFFICE THOUGH, THERE'S A DIFFERENT SET OF RULES THAT APPLY.
NOW, I MENTIONED MONEY BECAUSE MONEY IS ALL THIS IS ABOUT.
UH, WE'RE NOT, WELL, WE'RE NOT TOO FAR.
GALVESTON TIKI ISLAND, AT ONE POINT, THE VILLAGE OF TIKI ISLAND ON THE WAY TO GALVESTON GAVE A HUNDRED YEAR LEASE FOR A DOLLAR A YEAR TO THE LOCAL CHURCH.
WELL, WHO DOESN'T LIKE A CHURCH? WE GOT A GOD'S HOUSE.
ALL THE COUNCIL MEMBERS WENT TO THAT CHURCH.
A MAJORITY OF THE COUNCIL WERE DEACONS AT THAT CHURCH.
THEY'RE NOT SHAREHOLDERS IN THE CHURCH.
THEY DON'T OWN STOCK IN THE CHURCH.
I MENTIONED WIMBERLEY WHERE I WAS CITY ATTORNEY LONG AGO.
THEIR BIGGEST THING WAS SATURDAY TRADE DAYS.
AND THEY WOULD LEASE FOR A DOLLAR A YEAR FOR A HUNDRED YEARS.
OR CITY HALL PARKING LOT TO THE LIONS CLUB FOR THIS FUNDRAISER.
ALL THE COUNCILMEN WERE LIONS, ALL OF THEM.
NOW IF YOU FIND YOURSELF IN THAT SITUATION, YOU MAY WANT TO BE A LITTLE BIT OVERLY TRANSPARENT AND JUST LET PEOPLE KNOW.
YOU MAY WANT TO ABSTAIN FROM THE CONVERSATION BECAUSE IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO.
AND WE'LL GET TO YOUR ETHICS CODE IN JUST A LITTLE BIT.
BUT WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CONFLICTS OF INTEREST IN TEXAS, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MONEY.
LAND DOLLARS FOR YOU OR FOR YOUR RELATIVES.
INCOMPATIBILITY COMES UP MORE OFTEN THAN YOU'D THINK.
WHY? 'CAUSE PEOPLE THAT HAVE WHAT IT TAKES TO SERVE ON CITY COUNCIL ARE ASKED TO SERVE ON EVERYTHING ELSE TOO.
AND OFTEN YOU CAN, BUT SOMETIMES THERE'S AN INCOMPATIBILITY PROBLEM.
A COUNCIL MEMBER CANNOT ALSO BE ON THE SCHOOL BOARD.
EVEN IF YOU WERE TO BOTH DO IT VOLUNTARILY FOR NO MONEY.
CAN A CITY COUNCIL MEMBER ALSO BE FIRE CHIEF AND A VOLUNTEER FIRE DEPARTMENT? NO.
THOSE ARE THE OPINIONS WE HAVE.
CAN YOU BE ON A CITY COUNCIL AND VOTE TO GIVE MONEY TO THE, TO THE COUNTY'S EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT DISTRICT AND THEN BE EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT COORDINATOR FOR THE DISTRICT? MAYBE.
GO HIRE YOUR OWN LAWYER AND HAVE 'EM LOOK AT THIS COURT CASE THAT I PUT UP HERE ON THE SCREEN AND GET YOUR OWN OPINION.
'CAUSE YOU MIGHT BE RESIGNING FROM YOUR COUNCIL SEAT BY ACCEPTING THIS OUTSIDE JOB.
I THINK HERE YOU CAN BUILD A PORT ARTHUR INDEPENDENT SCHOOL DISTRICT PERSON AND RUN FOR CITY COUNCIL AND DON'T HAVE TO RESIGN.
BUT YOU CAN BE A CITY COUNCILMAN AND ANNOUNCE YOU'RE GONNA RUN FOR DEPENDENT SCHOOL DISTRICT.
THERE THERE'S A RESIGN TO RUN, WHICH THE CONSTITUTION SAYS YOU'VE GOT MORE THAN A YEAR REMAINING ON A YEAR, A TERM OF THREE OR MORE YEARS.
THAT'S THE CONSTITUTION'S RESIGN TO RUN.
UH, I THINK YOU HAVE SOME THINGS HERE ON YOUR OWN CHARTER, RIGHT? I THINK YOUR CHARTER HAS SOME PROVISION ABOUT RESIGN TO RUN.
YOU HAVE TO DISCLOSE YOUR RELATIONSHIP TO VENDORS THAT COME BEFORE YOU WITH A CONTRACT.
THE VENDORS HAVE TO DISCLOSE THEIR OWN FORM ON THEIR RELATIONSHIPS WITH YOU.
ARE YOU FAMILY MEMBERS? ARE YOU BUSINESS PARTNERS? ARE YOU INVESTORS OR IS YOUR SPOUSE? AND SO, UM, YOU HAVE TO TURN THOSE IN.
IF YOU DON'T, SOMEONE CALLS YOU ON IT.
YOU'VE GOT A SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME TO FILL OUT THE FORM, BUT YOU WANT TO DO IT UPFRONT.
[03:40:01]
TEXAS TO TAKE MONEY TO DO A PUBLIC THING OR NOT DO A PUBLIC THING.SO SOMEONE'S PAYING YOU TO VOTE FOR THEIR CONTRACT.
SOMEONE'S PAYING YOU NOT TO GIVE A DEAL OR A PERMIT TO SOMEBODY ELSE.
THAT'S BRIBERY, THAT'S ILLEGAL.
THE KNOCK ON THE DOOR YOU HEAR IS THE TEXAS RANGERS COMING TO GET YOU GIFTS IS COMPLICATED.
I TRIED TO GIVE YOU THE BEST EXPLANATION I CAN.
GIFTS ARE ILLEGAL EXCEPT FOR WHEN THEY'RE NOT.
SO, UM, IF IT'S A GIFT FROM YOUR DEAR FAMILY FRIEND, IT'S FROM YOUR SIBLING.
IT'S FROM YOUR KID, IT'S FROM YOUR BUSINESS PARTNER.
IT'S UNRELATED TO YOUR SERVICE AS A CITY OF PORT ARTHUR OFFICIAL, IT'S GOING TO BE OKAY.
IF IT'S A GIFT BEING GIVEN TO YOU AND THE ONLY BASIS FOR YOUR RELATIONSHIP IS THAT YOU'RE A PUBLIC OFFICIAL AND THEY'RE NOT, UH, THEN THAT'S A PROBLEM.
AND YOU PROBABLY NEED TO SAY NO TO IT ALTOGETHER.
BUT THERE'S VARIOUS THINGS THAT WE CAN DO.
UH, IF YOU'RE A CODE INSPECTOR, YOU CAN'T ACCEPT ANY GIFT FROM PEOPLE THAT YOU'RE INSPECTING.
IF YOU'RE A POLICE OFFICER, A JAILER AT THE JAIL, YOU CAN'T ACCEPT GIFTS FROM PEOPLE THAT ARE IN YOUR CUSTODY.
SOME THINGS ARE, ARE, ARE ABSOLUTE PROHIBITED.
BUT THEN YOU GET INTO MORE DETAILS.
SO THE GENERAL LIMIT FOR GIFTS IN TEXAS IS $50.
IF SOMEONE GIVES YOU SOMETHING THAT'S WORTH MORE THAN $50, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO SAY NO.
NEGOTIABLE INSTRUMENTS LIKE A CHECK.
AND NOW WE HAVE AN OPINION, UM, FROM THE TEXAS ETHICS COMMISSION THAT SAYS, NO DEBIT CARDS.
SO I HAD A MAYOR, UH, WHO HAD TERM LIMITS RECENTLY IN MAY.
GREAT MAYOR, FANTASTIC MAYOR, THE MOST CIVICALLY INVOLVED MAYOR I'VE EVER SEEN IN MY LIFE.
AND A LOCAL NONPROFIT WANTED TO GIVE HER A GIFT CARD TO THE BOOT MANUFACTURER DOWNTOWN.
GO BUY HER SOME FLOWERS AND MAKE IT LESS THAN $50.
WELL, THAT'S A PRETTY LOUSY BOUQUET OF FLOWERS.
THAT'S WHERE THE TEXAS LEGISLATURE HAS DRAWN THE LINE.
BY THE WAY, I KNOW THIS MAYOR, SHE DOESN'T NEED YOUR GIFTS.
WE WAS ALL GI WAS, I WAS GIVEN A, A PUNCH, A CIVIL PUNCH BOWL SET.
SO I TURNED IT IN TO THE CITY MANAGER.
SO THE CITY MANAGER CALLS ME AND SAID, WHAT AM I GONNA DO WITH THIS PUNCH BOWL? I GOT, I GOT NINE OF THEM.
I SAID, I JUST TURNED IN ONE
EVERYBODY ELSE BROUGHT THEIR BACK AND TURNED TO ME.
AND, AND THAT'S KIND OF THE LAST BULLET.
YOU KNOW, I DUNNO IF Y'ALL HAVE Y'ALL KNOW.
AND I, I KNOW THAT, THAT, THAT VAL KNOWS THE GREAT ART PERT TILE, A GREAT LAWYER IN IN THE HOUSTON, KATY AREA.
AND HE USED TO BE CITY ATTORNEY OF WACO.
WACO WAS NEVER A CLIENT, BUT I KIND OF WANTED TO BE A CLIENT.
BUT ART, ART IS A FRIEND AND A MENTOR OF MINE.
AND EVERY YEAR I'D SEND HIM THIS BASKET OF CANDY ALONG WITH SOME OTHER CLIENTS.
AND EVERY YEAR I'D GET THE SAME NOTE.
NUMBER ONE, THANK YOU FOR YOUR GIFT.
NUMBER TWO, MY WIFE WON'T LET ME EAT THIS CANDY.
AND NUMBER THREE, WE HAVE AN ETHICS POLICY HERE AT THE CITY OF WACO.
BUT I DROPPED IT OFF THIS MORNING AT THE BOYS AND GIRLS CLUB AND THEY LOVE IT.
AND I'M SITTING BACK GOING, VICTORY
I MADE A CONNECTION WITH A MAN THAT I ADMIRE.
YOU CAN TAKE A PROHIBITED GIFT, EVEN IF, EVEN IF YOU'RE ALLOWED TO HAVE IT.
YOU MAY NOT WANT IT
IF THERE ARE STRINGS, DONATING IT TO A NONPROFIT IS A PERFECTLY GOOD WAY TO GO.
GUESS WHAT? CITY OF PORT ARTHUR IS A NONPROFIT.
SO IF YOU WANNA GIVE IT TO THE CITY, THE CITY CAN USE IT.
THE CITY CAN DONATE IT THEMSELVES.
SO IF YOU'RE UNSURE, YOU DON'T WANT TO OFFEND THE DONOR.
BUT AGAIN, WHAT ART DID, IF Y'ALL KNOW HIM, AND THAT'S JUST SUCH AN ARTFUL WAY TO DO IT.
HE DIDN'T OFFEND ME BY REJECTING THE GIFT, BUT HE GENTLY PASSED IT ON TO SOMEBODY ELSE AND LIFE WAS OKAY.
THERE'S A SPECIAL EXCEPTION FOR FIRST OF THOUGHT FIRST RESPONDERS TO GET FREE LEGAL SERVICES.
WHY? LOOK WHAT WE ASK THOSE MEN AND WOMEN TO DO, THEY NEED TO MAKE SURE THEY'VE DONE SOME ESTATE PLANNING RIGHT? THEY, THEY DO DANGEROUS WORK.
BUT THAT MEANS IF SOMEBODY ELSE IS GETTING FREE LEGAL SERVICES, THAT'S AN ILLEGAL GIFT.
AND I'VE HAD MANY CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS GET FREE LEGAL SERVICES FROM LOCAL LAWYERS.
AND I'M LIKE, YOU'RE LUCKY I DON'T GO TURNING MY CLIENTS IN.
SOMEBODY ELSE IS GONNA FIND OUT SOMEDAY.
AND SO THERE ARE CERTAIN EXCEPTIONS.
IF YOU'RE GOING TO TML, THAT'S NOT A GIFT.
UM, YOU'RE GETTING PAID FOR YOUR OUT-OF-POCKET TRANSPORTATION COSTS, HOTEL ROOMS, MEALS.
THAT IS ALL ALLOWED UNDER THE GIFT STATUTE.
MISUSE OF INFORMATION IS A BIG ONE.
I WAS ONCE INTERVIEWED TO BE CITY ATTORNEY OF DRIPPING SPRINGS.
THE ONLY QUESTION THE MAYOR PRO TIM ASKED ME DURING MY INTERVIEW, DO YOU OR YOUR FAMILY OWN LAND IN THIS TOWN OR ETJ? NO.
[03:45:01]
WAS HIS ONLY TEST.HE WANTED A LAWYER WITH NO CONFLICTS.
BOY, I WAS THEIR CITY ATTORNEY FOR 17 YEARS.
FIRST SEWER SYSTEM CAME TO TOWN UNDER MY WATCH, COMPLETELY REZONED THE TOWN.
BROADENED ALL THE STREETS, ACQUIRED HUGE PARKS.
I COULD HAVE MADE MAJOR INVESTMENTS AND AGAIN, I WOULD'VE RETIRED EARLY, BUT I DIDN'T.
'CAUSE IT'S THE WRONG THING TO DO.
STATE BAR WOULD'VE HAD AN ISSUE WITH IT.
AND IT'S A VIOLATION OF THE PENAL CODE.
IF YOU ARE MAKING INVESTMENTS BASED ON INSIDER KNOWLEDGE THAT YOU ONLY HAVE BECAUSE OF YOUR OFFICIAL POSITION, THAT IS A CRIME IN TEXAS.
AND IT'S A CRIME FOR YOU TO PASS ON THAT INFORMATION TO YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE INVESTMENTS.
AND WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT ALL THE STUFF WE KNOW ABOUT PUBLIC INFRASTRUCTURE AND THINGS LIKE THAT, WE COULD ALL BE DOING IT LEFT AND RIGHT.
ABUSE OF OFFICE IS A BIG CATCHALL.
ARE YOU USING THE POWERS OF YOUR OFFICE TO OPPRESS SOMEBODY? ARE YOU USING THE POWERS YOUR OFFICE TO GIVE SOMEBODY A BENEFIT? THEY ARE NOT OTHERWISE ENTITLED TO RECEIVE.
OTHER MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC WOULD NEVER HAVE THIS BENEFIT.
OR ANYONE WHO CAME IN AND APPLIED FOR THIS PERMIT WOULD GET IT.
BUT YOU'RE USING YOUR POWER TO PUT THE THUMB ON IT AND STOP IT.
THAT IS WHAT FALLS UNDER ABUSE OF OFFICE.
NOW WE MOVE INTO THE REALLY HARD ONE.
THIS IS THE CITY OF PORT ARTHUR'S CODE OF ETHICS.
YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO HAVE ONE.
AND OF THE 1200 CITIES IN TEXAS, VERY, VERY FEW DO.
UH, I WAS NOT INVOLVED WITH IT.
I HAVE TO SAY I THINK IT'S A PRETTY GOOD CODE.
I THINK IT'S PRETTY WELL WRITTEN.
NO OFFENSE TO STAFF, BUT I'VE SEEN LOTS OF REALLY TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE CODES WRITTEN IN TEXAS THAT I GET PAID TO COME IN AND CLEAN UP LATER.
UH, YOURS IS DATED, EFFECTIVE OCTOBER 15TH.
UH, THERE IS AN ASSUMPTION THAT IT'S ESSENTIAL FOR DEMOCRACY TO WORK.
THAT WE'VE GOT TO HAVE CONFIDENCE IN OUR GOVERNMENT.
AND SO SOMETIMES YOU CAN ASK YOURSELF WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DO SOMETHING, WHAT'S A SIMPLE QUESTION? IS THIS THING THAT I'M ABOUT TO DO GONNA MAKE PEOPLE TRUST ME MORE OR TRUST ME LESS? AND THERE'S THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION.
I DON'T, I DON'T KNOW WHY YOU NEED A CODE OF ETHICS, BUT WE CERTAINLY HAVE ONE.
THE PURPOSE IS TO PROMOTE CONFIDENCE AND ALLOW THE CITY TO MOVE ALONG AND ACT EFFECTIVELY.
HOPEFULLY THAT'S WHAT WE'RE ALL HERE FOR.
WE'RE ALL HERE TO GET THINGS DONE, NOT JUST TO PAD OUR OWN WALLETS.
WHO DOES IT APPLY TO THIS LIST OF OFFICIALS FOR YOU? FOR SURE.
MAYOR COUNSEL, YOUR JUDGES, YOUR MANAGER, YOUR ATTORNEYS, YOUR CLERK.
UM, BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS AND TO AN EXTENT YOUR FORMER OFFICIALS.
THE FIRST SUBSTANTIVE PROHIBITION IS YOU CANNOT TAKE OFFICIAL ACTION IF IT BENEFITS YOU.
IF YOU'RE IN BUSINESS, MAYBE YOU'VE GOT A CLIENT OR A CUSTOMER, YOUR EMPLOYER, INCLUDING A PROSPECTIVE EMPLOYER.
SO MAYBE YOU'VE BEEN INTERVIEWING AND SOMEONE MADE YOU A JOB OFFER, BUT THEY'RE WAITING TO START YOU UNTIL YOU GIVE THEM THAT FAVOR ON CITY COUNCIL.
WELL, YOU CAN'T DO THAT IF YOU HAVE A SIDE BUSINESS.
YOU CAN'T BE BENEFITING THAT BUSINESS THROUGH YOUR PUBLIC SERVICE OR AN ENTITY THAT YOUR FAMILY HAS INTEREST IN.
IF ANY OF THOSE THINGS ARE TRIGGERED, JUST LIKE UNDER THE STATE LAW, YOU'VE GOT A DUTY TO DO TWO THINGS, DISCLOSE IT AND ABSTAIN, REFRAIN FROM DELIBERATING TALKING ABOUT IT.
NOW MAYBE YOU CARE VERY DEEPLY ABOUT THINGS.
FIND ANOTHER SPOKESPERSON,
UH, YOU'VE CHOSEN TO BE ON THE CITY COUNCIL OR YOU'VE CHOSEN A PUBLIC JOB THAT NEEDS TO COME FIRST.
WHO'S DESIGNATED TO GIVE IT ANY NOTARY? IS IT A STATE OATH? ANY NOTARY? HUH? ANY NOTARY? YEAH, ANY JUDGE.
THERE'S A, I'M SORRY, I I DON'T HAVE A PRECISE ANSWER.
'CAUSE IN THE STATUTE IT'S A REALLY LONG LIST.
AND OF COURSE ELECTED OFFICIALS.
WELL, ANY NOTARY, JUST LIKE A LAWYER.
GOT LAWYERS IN MY OFFICE WHO JUST PASSED THE BAR.
NOW I GIVE YOU THE BARE BASICS OF THE LAW.
NORMALLY WE TRY TO HAVE A LITTLE BIT MORE FORMALITY AND GET A NICE JUDGE AND A ROBE OR SOMETHING TO DO IT.
OKAY, THAT'S A BROAD QUESTION, BUT WE COULD REALLY NARROW IT DOWN TO WHAT WE NEED TO KNOW HERE AS COUNCIL PEOPLE.
WHEN WE SAY WHO CAN ADMINISTER, I KNOW PRETTY MUCH WE KNOW JUDGES AND ALL THESE PEOPLE
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AS PART OF THEIR DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITY.HOWEVER, IN A CITY LIKE A MUNICIPAL, WE ALSO HAVE OUR ORDINANCE AND OUR CHARTER WHERE WE DESIGNATE THE CITY'S SECRETARY AS A PERSON THAT ADMINISTER OUR OATH.
SO THAT'S, I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND HERE, IS THAT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT CITY BUSINESS AND SOMEBODY BEING GIVEN AN OATH, THE PERSON HERE IN THIS CITY, WE ALREADY HAVE DESIGNATED AS OUR CITY SECRETARY.
SO THAT IS THE PERSON THAT SHOULD BE ADMINISTERING THE OATH HERE WHEN IT INVOLVES OUR CITY.
NOW, THAT'S WHAT WE SHOULD HAVE CLARIFIED, BECAUSE IT'S KIND OF BROAD AND IT WAS TOO BROAD THERE, YOU KNOW, ALTHOUGH WE KNOW JUDGES COULD DO THAT AND EVERYBODY DO THAT.
WHEN IT COME DOWN TO SOMEBODY HAVING TO BE ADMINISTERED TO OATH, HERE IN OUR CITY, OUR DESIGNATED PERSON IS OUR CITY SECRETARY.
AND THAT'S, I, I BELIEVE THAT'S TRUE.
AGAIN, I, I'LL SAY MY ANSWER IS AN ANSWER REGARDING STATE LAW AND LOCAL POLICIES, CUSTOMS, TRADITIONS, PROCEDURES.
YOU SHOULD FOLLOW IT OR YOU SHOULD AMEND IT.
I USE THE EXAMPLE OF THE NEWEST LAWYER IN MY OFFICE.
I TOLD HIM, GET SWORN IN BY, BY OUR NOTARY PUBLIC.
AND THEN HOPEFULLY IN A WEEK OR SO, WE'RE GONNA GET A NICE JUDGE TO GIVE HIM THE OATH AGAIN.
SO WE GOT A NICE PHOTO OFF AND, AND HE GETS TO HAVE SOME PUNCHING COOKIES WITH HIS MOM.
UM, THERE'S LOCAL POLICY AND PRACTICE, AND THERE'S LAW, LAW.
ANY NOTARY CAN ADMINISTER THE OATH IN OUR CHARTER.
THE OATH OF THERE IS NO ONE DESIGNATED IN OUR CHARTER IS THE OATH OF OFFICE IS THE STATE LAW.
I HAD IT RESEARCH AND I HAVE A COPY OF IT.
I GOT IT FROM THE CITY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE.
THE OATH OF OFFICE IS NOBODY NAME DESIGNATED YOU.
YOU ARE REQUIRED TO TAKE THE, THE OATH OF OFFICE.
LET'S SEE, I GOT THERE, GOT THROUGH THAT ONE.
SO UNFAIR ADVANCEMENT OF, I'M SORRY.
IS THIS SOMETHING THAT WE NEED TO JUST PASS OR IS THIS SOMETHING THAT WE ADDRESS AND SO WE CAN GET IT OVER WITH? THIS IS ABOUT ETHICS.
SO LET'S STICK WITH THE ETHICS.
UNFAIR ADVANTAGE OF PRIVATE INTEREST.
YOU CAN'T USE YOUR OFFICIAL POSITION TO ACQUIRE INTEREST.
YOU KNOW, A VOTE'S COMING UP, YOU KNOW, IT'S A CONTRACT, IT'S A PURCHASE, IT'S AN APPROVAL, AND YOU GO OUT AND YOU INVEST IN THAT.
ANTICIPATING THE CITY COUNCIL'S ACTION.
OBVIOUSLY GONNA MAKE IT MORE VALUABLE.
THEN, UH, THAT WOULD BE A VIOLATION OF OUR CODE OF ETHICS.
I THINK IT WOULD ALSO VIOLATE THE PENAL CODE PROVISION THAT, UH, WE MENTIONED EARLIER, UNLESS IT WAS ALL PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE.
SO, AGAIN, I'VE, I'VE REPRESENTED THREE COMMUNITIES.
I KNOW Y'ALL ARE A BIG CITY AND YOU'RE AN OLD CITY.
I'VE REPRESENTED THE OTHER KIND TOO, WHERE WE'VE PUT IN THE VERY FIRST SEWER SYSTEM IN SODO AND IN WIMBERLEY AND IN WESTLAKE HILLS.
AND NOTHING JACKS UP THE COST OF LAND MORE THAN RUNNING A WATER AND SEWER PIPE NEXT TO IT.
I KNEW ALL THOSE PLANS IN ADVANCE OF ANYBODY.
ME AND THE ENGINEER AND THE MANAGER KNEW IT ALL.
COULD HAVE BOUGHT UP A LOT OF LAND.
AND IT'S ILLEGAL INDUCING FAVORS, QUID PRO QUO USING YOUR POSITION TO GET PEOPLE TO DO YOU SOMETHING.
HEY, IF THEY HELP YOU IN YOUR PERSONAL LIFE, YOU'LL GIVE THEM A FAVORABLE VOTE AT THE CITY COUNCIL DIOCESE OR TRYING TO STOP THEM FROM DOING SOMETHING.
DON'T YOU KNOW WHO I AM? THE MOST DANGEROUS WORDS A CITY COUNCIL MEMBER CAN EVER UTTER.
DON'T YOU KNOW WHO I AM TRYING TO GET YOUR, USE YOUR OFFICIAL POSITION TO GET YOU SOME SORT OF PERSONAL PRIVATE FAVOR OR OUT OF TROUBLE.
WE HAVE THE STATE NEPOTISM LAW AND THEN WE ALSO HAVE YOUR OWN LOCAL NEPOTISM RULES HERE IN YOUR CODE OF ETHICS AND IN YOUR CHARTER ALSO.
AND THEN OBTAINING FUNDING FOR A NONPROFIT.
SEE, I TOLD YOU 1 71 CONFLICT OF INTEREST IS ABOUT MONEY.
SO ALL THOSE DEALS THAT TIKI ISLAND DID, OR THE LIONS CLUB AND WIMBERLEY DID PERFECTLY LEGAL.
HAD YOU HAD THIS CODE OF ETHICS INVOLVED, THOSE COUNCIL MEMBERS WOULD HAVE TO RECUSE THEMSELVES IF THEY WERE ON THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS OF THOSE VERY WORTHWHILE ORGANIZATIONS AND HAVE THAT LITTLE BIT OF SEPARATION GIFTS.
YOU HAVE YOUR OWN GIFT PROVISION HERE IN PORT ARTHUR.
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YOU CAN'T ASK FOR ACCEPT THESE SORTS OF GIFTS UNLESS THERE'S A SPECIAL OCCASION.WEDDINGS, ANNIVERSARIES, BIRTHDAY PARTIES, OR ON THE SUPREME COURT TRAVEL EXPENSES.
YOU HAD TO MENTION THE SUPREME COURT.
UM, IT IS SOMETHING WE TALK ABOUT INTERNALLY AT MY FIRM REGULARLY, THE FACT THAT THERE'S A LACK OF THESE ETHICS CODES FOR THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT AND AT A TIME WHEN WE NEED PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO TRUST WHAT THEY'RE DOING.
IT DOESN'T SEEM VERY TRUSTWORTHY.
UH, PUBLIC AWARDS ARE OKAY IF YOU GO TO AN ACTUAL BANK AND GET A LOAN, THAT'S FINE.
GETTING LOANS OTHER THAN BANKS ARE GONNA BE QUESTIONABLE SCHOLARSHIPS, FELLOWSHIPS, ADMISSIONS TO EVENTS.
IF YOU ARE GOING BECAUSE YOU'RE A CITY OFFICIAL AND CITY OFFICIALS ARE INVITED OR EXPECTED, THAT IS OKAY.
UH, CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS, WE DON'T GET INTO THOSE AS LONG AS THEY'RE LAWFUL ATTENDANCE AT SOCIAL EVENTS.
IF IT'S PART OF YOUR JOB, UH, THAT'S NOT GONNA BE CONSIDERED A GIFT UNDER YOUR CODE CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION.
IT COMES UP AGAIN, IT IS A VIOLATION OF YOUR CODE OF ETHICS TO IMPROPERLY ACCESS IT, DISCLOSE IT OR USE IT FOR YOUR PERSONAL, UH, BUSINESS, YOUR PERSONAL PRIVATE NEEDS OR THOSE OF YOUR FAMILY.
SO IF YOU'RE BEING ENTRUSTED WITH CONFIDENTIAL PRIVILEGED INFORMATION, THAT'S FOR OFFICIAL USE IN YOUR OFFICIAL CAPACITY ONLY.
WHEN IT COMES TO REPRESENTING PRIVATE INTEREST, YOU CANNOT REPRESENT SOMEBODY ELSE IN FRONT OF ANY BOARD YOU SERVE ON.
IT'S THE COUNCIL OR REPRESENT ANYONE BEFORE THE CITY OTHER THAN YOURSELF.
YOU CAN SPEAK FOR YOURSELF, WHICH WOULD ALSO BE YOUR YOUR PROPERTY.
UH, REPRESENT ANYONE ADVERSE TO THE CITY, UH, IN LITIGATION.
IF YOU'RE A SALARIED EMPLOYEE, REPRESENT ANYONE ADVERSE TO THE CITY OTHER THAN YOURSELF IF YOU'RE NOT A SALARIED EMPLOYEE.
AND SO IF YOU'RE GETTING THE SENSE, IT'S REALLY PICK A SIDE, IT'S ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER.
YOU'RE EITHER THIS OR YOU'RE THAT.
UM, THAT IS THE CODE THAT YOU ADOPTED.
PUBLIC POP, PUBLIC POLICY, UH, FOR RESOURCES AND LAND THAT IS FOR PUBLIC USE ONLY IN THE EXTENT IT'S FOR THE CITY'S USE.
YOU CAN USE IT FOR YOUR PERSONAL PRIVATE USE IF IT'S AVAILABLE BY CITY POLICY FOR OTHER CITIZENS TO USE.
UM, WHETHER IT'S RENTING A PARTY ROOM FOR AN EVENT, A PIECE OF HEAVY EQUIPMENT USING STAFF TIME.
UM, I'VE SEEN ALL SORTS OF EXAMPLES OF THIS ONE BE VIOLATED.
THE CITY'S TOOLS AND TOYS ARE NOT YOUR TOOLS AND TOYS FOR YOUR PERSONAL PRIVATE LIFE UNLESS WE HAVE A POLICY OF MAKING THOSE AVAILABLE TO OTHERS.
POLITICAL ACTIVITIES, YOU CAN'T USE YOUR POSITION WITH THE CITY TO PESTER, BULLY, ENTICE AND ANTAGONIZE, UH, PEOPLE TO GET INVOLVED IN POLITICS.
IF YOU'RE JUST MAKING GENERAL STATEMENTS, HEY, ELECTION DAY'S COMING UP, GET OUT AND VOTE.
NO SIGNS FOR OR AGAINST, UH, CANDIDATES OR PROPOSITIONS ON CITY VEHICLES, ACTIONS OF OTHERS.
YOU CAN'T TRY TO GET AROUND THESE RULES BY PRESSURING OTHER PEOPLE TO VIOLATE THE RULES FOR YOU.
OH, GOT A QUESTION? CERTAINLY.
THE POLITICAL ACTIVITY, YOU ARE SAYING THAT, THAT YOU CANNOT, UH, UH, IF YOU GOT CAMPAIGN MONEY, YOU ARE SAYING THAT, UH, A CANDIDATE OR IF YOU GOT SOME, SOME, SOME, UH, CAMPAIGN MONEY LEFT, YOU CAN'T MAKE IT A DONATION TO AN ORGANIZATION OR THING LIKE THAT.
NOW, THE TEXAS ELECTION CODE COVERS CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS AND WHAT, HOW YOU REPORT THEM WHEN YOU REPORT THEM AND WHAT YOU CAN DO WITH THEM.
AND NOTHING ABOUT YOUR CODE OF ETHICS CHANGES.
HOW YOU HANDLE THAT LAWFUL CAMPAIGN MONEY.
OKAY? JUST GONNA SPEND IT ON YOURSELF.
I WOULD SUGGEST YOU NOT DO THAT.
CAN YOU GO BACK TO THE PREVIOUS SLIDE OF INDUCING OTHERS? YES.
ASSIST INDUCE OTHERS TO VIOLATE PORT ARTHUR'S CODE OF ETHICS.
WHAT WOULD BE AN EXAMPLE OF THAT? WHAT WOULD BE A VIOLATION OF THAT? UM, YOU CAN'T DISCLOSE CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT YOU'VE ACHIEVED BECAUSE OF YOUR POSITION, BUT YOU CAN'T TURN TO YOUR LEFT
[04:00:01]
AND ASK MR. LEWIS TO DISCLOSE IT FOR YOU.HE WOULD BE GUILTY OF DISCLOSING CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION AND YOU WOULD BE GUILTY OF INDUCING ENTICING ASKING HIM TO DISCLOSE CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION.
SO WOULD IT BE A VIOLATION OF THE CODE OF ETHICS IF INFORMATION WAS MISINFORMATION WAS PROVIDED TO YOU HAD A, A SCREEN THAT LISTED SUBORDINATES, WHAT WOULD BE, DID IT SAY SUBORDINATES OR DID IT, WHAT WAS THE PREVIOUS SCREEN? YEAH.
INDUCE OR INFLUENCE OR INDUCE SUBORDINATES REGARDING POLITICAL ACTIVITIES.
CITY ON, ON BEHALF OF ALL CITY EMPLOYEES, PLEASE DON'T PRESSURE US TO VOTE FOR YOU.
PLEASE DON'T ASK ME TO PUT ON A BUTTON.
PLEASE DON'T ASK ME TO BLOCK WALK WITH YOU AND GIVE YOU A CHECK.
PLEASE DON'T PRESSURE YOUR EMPLOYEES TO GET OUT AND VOTE FOR THAT TAX.
THAT'S INAPPROPRIATE FOR YOU TO DO.
THEY WANT TO HAVE A JOB AND THEY'RE GONNA FEEL LIKE THEIR JOB IS THREATENED.
EVEN THOUGH YOU CAN'T FIRE THAT CITY EMPLOYEE, YOU CAN LEAN ON THE GENTLEMAN WHO CAN FIRE THEM.
THAT WOULD ALSO EXTEND TO INFLUENCING, UH, FOR EXAMPLE, IF A COUNCIL MEMBER M ELECTED OF FISHER THAT ONLY CAN EVALUATE CITY MANAGER, CITY SECRETARY, CITY ATTORNEY, AND MAYBE CITY, CITY, I MEAN A MUNICIPAL JURY, BUT IT IS WAY, WAY OUTTA LINE WHEN A, A SITTING CITY COUNCIL, PEOPLE, TWO SITTING CITY COUNCIL PEOPLE GO DOWN TO THE EDC, EVALUATE AN EDC EMPLOYEE, CHANGED EVALUATION, TWO SITTING COUNCIL MEMBERS DONE THAT CHANGED THE EVALUATION, TRIGGERED A LAWSUIT.
I'M SHOCKED TO HEAR THAT I, UH, WILL, WILL STAY OUT OF SPECIFIC FACT PATTERNS HERE IN THE CITY.
I'LL SAY THAT SO MUCH OF, OF WHAT I CAN RECOMMEND TO CLIENTS TO HELP KEEP THEM OUT OF TROUBLE IS THE SIMPLE RULE OF STAYING IN YOUR LANE.
AND, AND YET I'VE, I'VE HAD MANY, MANY COUNCIL MEMBERS THAT I'VE SERVED REALLY, REALLY GET ANGRY WITH ME FOR SAYING THAT.
BUT I'M SAYING IT FROM, IT COMES FROM A PLACE OF WANTING TO HELP AND AND PROTECT YOU.
AND WHEN IN DOUBT, TALK TO STAFF AND WORK UP A PLAN.
WE'LL TALK ABOUT IT MORE ON OUR FINAL PRESENTATION.
UM, BUT THERE REALLY IS NOT A LOT OF POWER IN EACH OF YOU UNDER THE LAW WHEN YOU STEP DOWN OFF THIS DAIS.
I'VE NEVER SAID ANYTHING THAT HAD MORE HATE DIRECTED TOWARD ME AT TML THAN THAT.
I SAID A VERSION OF THAT AT A TML CONFERENCE.
AND THEY CAME MARCHING OVER TO MY BOOTH BACK WHEN I USED TO HAVE IN A BOOTH IN THE EXHIBIT HALL, AND THEY'D LINE UP TO CHEW ME OUT.
I DID NOT JUST GET ELECTED TO GO TO COUNCIL MEETINGS.
I DID NOT JUST GET ELECTED TO VOTE.
I DO THIS THAT MY CITIZENS EXPECT ME TO.
THAT'S FASCINATING, BUT I'M NOT WRONG.
AND THE LAW SAYS YOU'RE ELECTED TO SIT UP THERE AND TALK AND VOTE.
NOW Y'ALL DO A BUNCH OF OTHER STUFF.
YOU'RE LIAISONS TO BOARDS AND COMMITTEES.
YOU GO TO TOWN HALL MEETINGS, YOU DO RESEARCH, YOU REPRESENT, I KNOW YOU DO.
THE LAW DOESN'T TALK ABOUT ANY OF THAT.
IT SAYS Y'ALL WERE ELECTED TO SIT UP HERE, TALK AND VOTE, WHICH IS WHY YOUR GREATEST SAFETY UNDER THE LAW IS WHEN YOU DO THAT.
AND SO AN EDC IS A SEPARATE QUASI-GOVERNMENTAL, NONPROFIT ORGANIZATION.
YOU INDIVIDUALLY HAVE NO POWER OVER AN EDC.
BUT THE CITY COUNCIL HAS ALL SORTS OF POWER OVER IN EDC.
AND I'VE HAD CITIES ABOLISH THE ENTIRE BOARD AND HIRE A NEW BOARD.
AND I JUST TOLD YOU I HAD A CITY COUNCIL TAKE MOST EDCS MONEY AWAY FROM THEM.
REPEAT THAT, THAT PUT IN FRONT THE VOTERS PUTTING STATEMENT OF WHAT WE HAVE.
POWER OF THE CITY COUNCIL HAS A GREAT DEAL OF OVERSIGHT AUTHORITY OVER ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT CORPORATIONS.
YOU APPROVE THE BOARD, YOU APPROVE THE BUDGET, YOU APPROVE PROJECTS, WHAT? OVER $10,000 AND THAT YOU, YOU CALLED THE ELECTION TO CREATE THE SALES TAX.
SO THAT'S A WHOLE OTHER SEMINAR, A WHOLE OTHER DAY.
CORPORATION, THERE'S OFTEN A GREAT DEAL OF TENSION BETWEEN CITIES AND THEIR EDCS.
'CAUSE THE EDC DOESN'T UNDERSTAND THEIR ROLE.
AND SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO TRY TO WORK TO GET BACK INTO ALIGNMENT.
AND IF YOU DON'T, THERE'S A LOT OF HURT FEELINGS, BAD POLITICS AND MONEY WASTED.
BUT THAT'S, THAT'S A CONFERENCE FOR ANOTHER DAY, RON, DON'T YOU THINK? YEAH.
IT'S THE INTERACTIONS WITH CITY STAFF.
THIS CODE OF ETHICS PROVISION ALSO REINFORCES WHAT THE VOTERS ALREADY PUT
[04:05:01]
INTO YOUR CHARTER.UM, YOU MUST REMAIN AWARE OF YOUR LACK OF AUTHORITY AS INDIVIDUALS.
AGAIN, I JUST SAID THAT DIDN'T I WAS ALREADY ON THE SCREEN.
IT'S 'CAUSE Y'ALL PUT IT IN YOUR CODE OF ETHICS.
UH, YOU ARE NOT TO MAKE INDIVIDUAL PUBLIC JUDGEMENTS ABOUT CITY EMPLOYEES PERFORMANCE.
UH, I SUPPOSE YOU COULD PROBABLY BASH THE CITY MANAGER.
UH, YOU CAN BASH ME ALL YOU WANT TO.
MY TRUCK DOESN'T EVEN LEAVE THE PARKING LOT.
Y'ALL BE BASHING ME ON FACEBOOK.
IT WASN'T THE COUNCIL, IT WAS THE JOURNALIST.
OH, I DID THIS KIND OF TRAINING FOR ODESSA AND MY WIFE WAS WITH ME AND SHE'S LOOKING AT FACEBOOK.
AS WE'RE DRIVING OUT OF ODESSA, THE JOURNALISTS ARE BASHING ME ON FACEBOOK FOR WHAT I JUST DID FOR Y'ALL.
UH, WE'LL SEE WHAT Y'ALL DO TO ME WHEN I LEAVE.
UM, DO NOT CIRCUMVENT THE POWER OF THE CITY MANAGER.
AGAIN, THIS IS BECAUSE YOUR VOTERS, NOT ME, YOUR VOTERS ADOPTED A CHARTER THAT SAID YOU'RE A HOME RULE CITY.
AND YOU GOT A CITY MANAGER FORM OF GOVERNMENT, WHICH I HAPPEN TO THINK IS A GOOD FORM OF GOVERNMENT.
IT GIVES THE CITY MANAGER ALL SORTS OF POWER OVER STAFF.
AND THE DAY-TODAY OPERATION, YOUR GREATEST AUTHORITY IS IN THE ORDINANCES.
YOU APPROVE THE CONTRACTS, YOU APPROVE THE POLICY YOU SET AND WHO YOU HIRE FOR CITY MANAGER.
OH, AND CITY ATTORNEY AND JUDGES AND OTHERS.
BUT THERE, THERE IS NO, NO DECISION BIGGER THAN THAT.
YOU ADOPTED A CODE OF ETHICS THAT SAYS YOU HAVE TO, UM, NOT INTERFERE WITH THE POWER OF THE CITY MANAGER.
YOU CAN GIVE A CITY MANAGER DIRECTION AND INSTRUCTIONS AND EXPECTATIONS AND ALL THOSE THINGS THAT YOU AND HE HAVE ALREADY WORKED OUT.
BUT YOU CAN'T GO AROUND HIM DIRECTLY TO STAFF.
WHY? BECAUSE THIS SYSTEM WAS DESIGNED YEARS AGO NATIONALLY, TO PROTECT STAFF FROM YOU.
YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE, AREN'T YOU POLITICIANS? EW.
THE WHIMS OF POLITICIANS, UH, BAD OLD DAYS IN CHICAGO AND NEW YORK AND PLACES LIKE THAT LED TO THIS REVOLUTION IN GOVERNMENT MANAGEMENT CALLED THE CITY MANAGER FORM OF GOVERNMENT MEANT TO BUFFER THE DAY-TO-DAY EMPLOYEES FROM THE WHIMS OF THE ELECTED OFFICIALS.
THAT IS THE SYSTEM THAT WE HAVE HERE.
IT'S IN YOUR CHARTER INTERACTIONS WITH THE PUBLIC.
YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO REPRESENT THAT YOU SPEAK FOR THE CITY OR THE CITY COUNCIL.
AND UNLESS YOU'VE BEEN GIVEN AUTHORITY TO DO SO, I SEE THAT COME UP MOST OFTEN WHEN DEALING WITH OTHER LOCAL GOVERNMENTS.
I HAVE OTHER CITIES WITH A CODE OF ETHICS.
SAYS IF YOU GO DOWN THE SCHOOL BOARD AND YOU SAY, LOOK, I'M SPEAKING FOR THE COUNCIL HERE AND WE WANNA SEE THIS AND THAT, AND DON'T YOU DARE GO DO ANY OF THAT.
I HOPE YOU HAVE A RESOLUTION IN YOUR BACK POCKET.
'CAUSE IF YOU DIDN'T, YOU VIOLATED YOUR CODE OF ETHICS.
THE OTHER PLACE I SEE THAT IS DURING THE LEGISLATURE, WHICH IS WHY EVERY LEGISLATIVE SESSION I HAVE ONE OF MY CLIENTS PASS A RESOLUTION SAYING THAT THE CITY MANAGER, THE CITY ATTORNEY, AND THE MAYOR, OR AUTHORIZED TO SPEAK ON BEHALF OF THE CITY ON ANY PIECE OF LEGISLATION BEYOND THAT, THE CITY COUNCIL VOTES ON INDIVIDUAL PIECES OF LEGISLATION TO SUPPORT IT, OPPOSE IT, ASK THEM TO CHANGE IT.
AND SO THE COUNCIL CAN DESIGNATE YOU TO DO SOMETHING, MAKE YOU THEIR LIAISON, MAKE YOU THE SPOKESPERSON.
BUT THAT NEEDS TO BE ON AN AGENDA VOTED ON.
AND YOU'VE GOT THAT IN YOUR BACK POCKET.
OR YOU MIGHT HAVE A, AN ETHICS COMPLAINT COMING YOUR DIRECTION.
SPEAKING OF COMPLAINTS, YOUR CODE ALSO PROVIDES A PROCESS.
THAT'S WHY SOMETIMES CITIES ADOPT A CODE OF ETHICS.
THEY HAVE THEIR OWN SENSE OF RIGHT AND WRONG.
THEY JUST DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT WHEN SOMEBODY VIOLATED THAT SENSE OF RIGHT OR WRONG.
SO WE WANTED TO HAVE A PROCESS AND PROCEDURES TO BRING ORDER TO THAT SORT OF CHAOS.
IT'S GOTTA BE SIGNED, IT'S GOTTA BE NOTARIZED.
IT HAS TO ALLEGE A SPECIFIC VIOLATION.
IT'S GOT TO PROVIDE FACTS AT THAT POINT.
UM, IT CAN BE REVIEWED BY THE CITY ATTORNEY.
IT CAN GO TO THE CITY COUNCIL.
THERE CAN BE AN INVESTIGATION.
THE, THE BIGGEST FILTER YOU HAVE, WHICH IS A GOOD ONE, I'VE SEEN IT ELSEWHERE, IS THIS.
YOU CAN LOOK AT IT AND SAY, EVEN IF EVERYTHING THAT IS ALLEGED IS ASSUMED TO BE A HUNDRED PERCENT TRUE, IT STILL DOESN'T ADD UP TO ANYTHING.
THERE IS NO VIOLATION OF OUR CODE DISMISSED.
I WAS VERY HAPPY TO FIND THAT.
THAT HELPS YOU GET RID OF A LOT OF GARBAGE.
'CAUSE WHILE I AM A TIRELESS ADVOCATE OF ETHICS AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT, I HAVE SEEN MORE AND MORE WEAPONIZING ETHICS.
I DON'T LIKE YOU, I DON'T LIKE WHAT YOU DID.
I DON'T LIKE WHAT YOU STAND FOR.
THEREFORE YOU MUST BE UNETHICAL.
[04:10:01]
COMPLAINT AGAINST YOU.AND THEY'RE OFTEN BASELESS AND UNFOUNDED.
YOU HAVE A WAY TO FILTER THOSE OUT.
BUT IF YOU SAY, WELL, I ASSUME THIS IS TRUE.
WE'RE GONNA DO SOME FACT GATHERING.
WE'RE GONNA SEE IF THE ACCUSATIONS CAN ACTUALLY BE SUPPORTED.
YOUR ORDINANCE IS UNIQUE IN THAT THE PERSON WHO'S BEING ACCUSED HAS THE RIGHT TO SAY, NAH, I DON'T WANT A HEARING.
AND AT THAT POINT, THE COUNSEL GOES, OKAY, I GET TO DECIDE.
SO YOU ADOPTED THE CODE AND Y'ALL ARE ALSO THE, THE JUDGE AND JURY OVER YOUR OWN CODE OF ETHICS.
THERE ARE SOME PUNISHMENT ASPECTS IN THERE, UH, REGARDING CIVIL FINES AND, AND, UM, PERJURY.
THE NEXT THING THAT PEOPLE DON'T OFTEN THINK OF, BUT YOU HAVE TO 'CAUSE YOUR HOME RULE IS YOUR CHARTER.
AND YOUR CHARTER HAS A FEW PROVISIONS THAT I THINK COULD BE CHARACTERIZED AS ETHICS.
AGAIN, THESE ARE THINGS THE CHARTER DRAFTERS PUT IN AND YOUR VOTERS APPROVED OF.
YOU CAN'T TRY TO APPOINT OR REMOVE ANY STAFF DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY UNLESS THE CHARTER GIVES YOU POWER TO DO SO.
SO CITY MANAGER, CITY ATTORNEY.
YOU CAN'T GIVE ORDERS TO CITY EMPLOYEES THAT YOU DID NOT APPOINT.
AND IT SAYS DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY, THIS IS ANOTHER RULE THAT SUPPORTS THE CITY MANAGER FORM OF GOVERNMENT.
UM, COUNCIL MUST DEAL WITH ADMIN STAFF THROUGH THE CITY MANAGER.
THAT'S THE WAY IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE.
UM, AND COUNCIL CAN'T APPOINT THEIR RELATIVES.
SO IT'S IN STATE LAW, IT'S IN YOUR CHARTER AND IT'S IN YOUR CODE OF ETHICS.
NOW, Y'ALL HAVE BEEN QUESTIONING ME THIS WHOLE TIME.
OH, THINK ABOUT THIS SCENARIO.
AN ELECTED OFFICIAL ASKED THE CITY'S SECRETARY FOR HELP.
THE CITY'S SECRETARY'S ASKED TO COMPLETE THAT CITY OFFICIAL, THAT COUNCIL MEMBER, THAT MAYOR'S CAMPAIGN FINANCE REPORT BEFORE AND AFTER THE ELECTION.
YOU DON'T GET TO SAY SHUSH
SO YOU CAN BE AN INCUMBENT CITY COUNCIL MEMBER, BUT YOU'RE ALSO A PRIVATE INDIVIDUAL.
RUNNING FOR OFFICE AND PUTTING YOUR CITY RESOURCES TO WORK FOR YOU IS AGAINST STATE LAW.
ARGUABLY IF IT'S ON A BALLOT ALREADY, BUT EVEN THEN, IT IS JUST UNFAIR.
YOU'RE PUTTING YOUR CITY STAFF IN AN UNWINNABLE POSITION.
WHAT IF THERE ARE MISTAKES ON YOUR FORM? YOU TURN AROUND AND BLAME THE CITY SECRETARY FOR IT.
WHAT ABOUT ALL THE CANDIDATES WHO DID NOT GET HELP FILLING OUT THEIR REPORTS? THAT'S A PROBLEM.
I'M GLAD YOU I'M GLAD YOU SAID THAT.
WHEN A COUNCIL, WHEN A COUNCIL VOTE AGAINST AN APPOINTMENT, THEY HAVE NO AUTHORITY TO LISTEN UP.
LISTEN UP, VOTE AGAINST AN APPOINTMENT THAT PUT THAT, PUT PRESSURE ON THE CITY SECRETARY THAT PUT PRESSURE ON THE CITY.
SECRETARY OF GOD BLESS OUR TOUGH CITY SECRETARY, ALAN.
HOW ABOUT THIS ONE? WE JUST HAD LUNCH.
Y'ALL LIKE LUNCH? I LOVE LUNCH.
OH, SKIP THAT TOO BECAUSE WE, WE GOT ISSUES ABOUT GROCERIES TOO.
I MENTIONED TRASH EARLIER FOR A REASON.
YOU GOT A SERIES OF PRIVATE LUNCHES AT THE INVITATION OF THREE DIFFERENT SOLID WASTE CONTRACTS.
IT'S FOR AN EXCLUSIVE SEVEN YEAR DEAL TO BE THE SOLE PICKER, UPPER HOLLER AND DISPOSER OF YOUR TRASH LUNCH.
IT STINKS OR BECAUSE IT'S NOT ILLEGAL.
THEY'RE GONNA BE COMING BEFORE YOU DO.
YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO, IT'S NOT ILLEGAL, BUT IT, BUT IT GIVES THE APPEARANCE OF IMPROPRIETY.
PEOPLE, YOU DON'T DO NONE OF THAT.
IT'S NOT ILLEGAL, BUT IT GIVES THEM
SO, SO AGAIN, Y'ALL, Y'ALL ARE MY CAPTIVATED AUDIENCE OF INSIGHT INTO ME AS A YOUNG LAW STUDENT.
INTERN CITY OF LUBBOCK HAD THE BEST JOB I EVER HAD IN MY LIFE.
INTERNING FOR THE CITY SOLID WASTE DEPARTMENT.
NEVER WOULD'VE THOUGHT SO, BUT IT WAS A GREAT GIG.
THE MAN HAD A MASTER'S DEGREE.
HE WAS AN OFFICER IN VIETNAM COMBAT.
HE PUT IN ROADS IN SAUDI ARABIA AND LANDFILLS IN GUATEMALA.
HE SENT ME FROM LUBBOCK TO ABILENE TO CHECK OUT A SLUDGE HAULING COMPANY.
'CAUSE A SLUDGE HAULING COMPANY WANTED TO BE AT OUR LANDFILL.
WHAT SLUDGE? THE STUFF THAT COMES OUT OF GRIT TRAPS AT CAR WASHES, GREASE
[04:15:01]
FROM RESTAURANTS.I WENT, TALKED TO ALL THE NEIGHBORS.
NO ONE HAD ANY IDEA WHAT THAT BUILDING WAS.
MOST GODAWFUL SMELL I'VE EVER SMELLED IN MY LIFE, BUT THEY CONTAINED IT VERY WELL.
SO AS AN INTERN, I GO BACK, I WRITE UP MY REPORT, I GIVE IT TO THE PUBLIC, THE SOLID WASTE DIRECTOR WHO GIVES IT TO PUBLIC WORKS, GIVES THE CITY MANAGER GOES ON AT SOME POINT, THE PUBLIC, THE UH, SOLID WASTE DIRECTOR GOES, ALLEN, HOW IS YOUR TRIP? GOOD.
YOU GOT USE A CITY CELL PHONE.
I GOT TO USE THIS BIG ASS CITY CELL PHONE.
WHERE'D YOU GO TO LUNCH? I WENT TO WHATABURGER.
WHAT? YOU WENT TO WHATABURGER? YES, SIR.
THE PEOPLE AT THE SLUDGE COMPANY TOOK YOU TO WHATABURGER.
THEY DIDN'T OFFER TO TAKE YOU TO LUNCH? OH, YES SIR.
THEY OFFERED TO TAKE ME TO LUNCH, BUT I DIDN'T GO.
WELL, WHY DIDN'T YOU GO TO LUNCH? WELL, BECAUSE I'M INVESTIGATING THEM.
I'M WRITING A REPORT THAT MAY LEAD TO THEM GETTING A FACILITY.
I DIDN'T THINK IT'D BE GOOD FOR ME TO ACCEPT LUNCH FROM THEM.
LEE RAMIREZ SAID, ALAN, IF I THOUGHT YOUR PROFESSIONAL JUDGMENT COULD BE PURCHASED FOR THE COST OF LUNCH, YOU WOULD NOT WORK HERE.
RIGHT? LUNCH IS JUST BUYING SOMEONE'S TIME.
YOU'RE GETTING 45 MINUTES OR AN HOUR OF THEIR ATTENTION.
HE PASSED AWAY JUST A COUPLE YEARS AGO IN SAN ANTONIO.
I DON'T THINK HIS RULE HOLDS UP ANYMORE.
I THINK IF THE CITIZENS FOUND OUT THAT I WAS GOING TO LUNCH WITH THESE PEOPLE AND THEN WRITING A REPORT THAT FAVORS THEM, THEY WOULD NOT TRUST ME.
AND THEY WOULD NOT TRUST MY REPORT.
AND I THINK IF, AND I'VE HAD ONCE I WAS ON THE SOLID WASTE ADVISORY COMMISSION, 'CAUSE Y'ALL KNOW I LOVE TALKING TRASH.
I WAS ON THE SOLID WASTE ADVISORY COMMISSION FOR THE CITY OF AUSTIN AND THEY WERE CLOSING CITY OF AUSTIN'S LANDFILL.
AND AUSTIN NO LONGER HAS A LANDFILL AND THEY'RE ACCEPTING BIDS TO SEND THEIR TRASH TO OTHER LANDFILLS.
AND ALL THOSE HAULERS WERE OFFERED TO TAKE ME OUT TO LUNCH.
AND WITH ONE, I WENT, WE NEVER TALKED BUSINESS.
WE TALKED SPORTS AND EVERYTHING ELSE.
WHY YOU GOTTA VOTE FOR US? WE'RE THE BEST.
YOU GOTTA I STOOD UP AND THREW MY 20 BUCKS ON THE TABLE AND WALKED OUT.
FIRST OF ALL, HOW DARE THEY TAKE ME TO RED LOBSTER? CAN YOU BELIEVE THEY TOOK RED LOBSTER? THEY'RE LOBBYING ME.
MY PARENTS LIKE RED LOBSTER AND NOT ME.
I WISH I'D NEVER GONE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
OH, YOU WANNA MEET WITH ME? ABSOLUTELY.
THERE'S A CONFERENCE ROOM AT CITY HALL.
WE'LL SEE IF ANYBODY ON CITY STAFF WANTS TO COME SIT WITH ME AND EVERYONE GONNA SIT DOWN AND TALK ABOUT THIS.
BUT I'VE GOT COUNCIL MEMBERS THIS LAST SPRING.
THEY DIDN'T JUST GO ABOUT THIS PLACE IN AUSTIN.
WE GOT TRASH LANDFILLS WITH ZEBRAS AND RHINOCEROS AND ELEPHANTS AND GIRAFFES.
AND I'VE BEEN WITH MAYORS AND CITY MANAGERS TO GO S***T SHOOTING AT A LANDFILL.
BUT IF YOU GO AND DO THAT, AND THEN YOU VOTE TO GIVE THAT TRASH HOLLERER AN EXCLUSIVE DEAL FOR SEVEN YEARS, WHAT IF ALL THE CITIZENS FOUND OUT ABOUT IT? WOULD THEY TRUST YOU OR NOT? NO, IT WON'T.
THEY WANT, I'VE BEEN INVITED TO GO TO LUNCHES AND EVERYTHING.
THEY SAID, WHY NOT? I SAID, LEMME TELL YOU SOMETHING.
OKAY, WE'LL TALK OVER THE PHONE BECAUSE IF I GO TO LUNCH WITH YOU, WHY SHOULD I TAKE, ALL I NEED IS 15 MINUTES.
WHY SHOULD I TAKE TWO HOURS OUT OF MY DAY TO GO SIT DOWN AND TALK WITH YOU? AND THEN I WON'T.
I PROBABLY WON'T EVEN EAT THE LUNCH BECAUSE YOU DONE TICK ME OFF.
SO, SO I THINK YOU EACH OUT HAVE YOUR OWN, THE IDEA BEHIND THE LUNCHEON THING IS TO DISARM YOU MAYBE.
THAT'S WHAT IT'S, THAT'S WHAT IT'S ABOUT.
SO WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TAKING A LUNCH AND TAKING A CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTION, UM, CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS, LEGAL COVERED BY THE ELECTION CODE.
I MEAN, ETHICALLY, YOU HAVE A, YOU HAVE A REPORT AND I THINK THAT, THAT EACH OF YOU HAVE TO DECIDE FOR YOURSELF, ARE THERE STRINGS ATTACHED TO THIS? WHAT WILL MY VOTERS THINK WHEN THEY SEE MY FINANCE REPORT? DOESN'T THE SAME THING GO DO I WANT TO ACCEPT IT? DOESN'T THE SAME THING.
THE THING UNDER STATE LAW, THE NOTES I DIDN'T SAY IT'S ILLEGAL.
RIGHT? THAT'S ALL UNDER TEXAS LAW, UH, ENTERTAINMENT, TRAVEL, FOOD.
AS LONG AS YOUR HOST IS WITH YOU, NOT ONLY IS THERE NO DOLLAR LIMIT, YOU DON'T, THEY, YOU DON'T HAVE TO REPORT IT.
AND THEY DON'T HAVE TO REPORT IT UNLESS THEY'RE A REGISTERED LOBBYIST.
WHICH TAKES US TO THIS SLIDE, WHICH I REALLY LOVE THIS SLIDE.
MAYBE YOU REALLY LOVE THE ROCKETS, RIGHT? OH YEAH.
AND A VENDOR OF YOURS, SOMEONE THAT OPERATES ONE OF YOUR FACILITIES, THEY'RE GONNA BUILD, THEY'RE GONNA PAVE ALL YOUR ROADS, WHATEVER.
YOU EVER BEEN TO A LUXURY SKY BOX? OH YEAH.
[04:20:01]
RIGHT NOW.AND AS LONG AS YOUR HOST IS WITH YOU, LEGAL, NO REPORT.
IS IT WORTH IT WHEN YOUR VOTERS FIND OUT
JUST LIKE THE BUNCH, NOTHING ILLEGAL ABOUT THIS.
AND, AND OUR AMERIPRO, TIM IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
MAYBE YOU DID GO TO THE NBA GAME.
AND WHEN THEIR CONTRACT COMES UP FOR RENEWAL, YOU RECUSE YOURSELF.
WHAT A GREAT WAY OF DEALING WITH THAT.
IN PREVIOUS SLIDE WE TALKED ABOUT ACCEPTING GIFTS.
SOMETHING THAT WORKED WAS WORTH MORE THAN $50.
WHAT WE ARE SPEAKING ABOUT HERE IS MORE THAN $50.
HAVE YOU EVER MET A STATE SENATOR OR STATE REPRESENTATIVE?
I TELL YOU WHAT, THEY WILL NEVER PASS A RULE OUTLAWING THIS.
WHY? THEY RELY ON THIS ALL THE TIME.
AND THAT'S WHY THIS IS ALLOWED.
BUT THE GIFT THING, NO, THEY PASSED A LAW ON THAT.
BUT I'M JUST SAYING IF WE GO BACK TO A GIFT SLIDE THAT'S, THERE'S ONE SLIDE WHERE IT REVERT TO SOMETHING YOU ARE GIVEN, UH, OR INVITED TO.
SO ALL I'M DOING IS REFERRING TO WHAT WE HAD IN A PREVIOUS SLIDE.
ALL YOU'RE SAYING HERE IS THAT THIS ONE HERE IS ACCEPTABLE.
I CAN UNDERSTAND IT, BUT IT CONTRADICT WHAT WAS IN THE PREVIOUS SLIDE WITH WHAT WE ACCEPT FROM SOMEBODY.
AND I, AND I, I THINK I'VE, I'VE ARMED YOU WITH INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT THE LAW SAYS AND WHAT IT DOESN'T SAY.
AND YOU GET TO MAKE YOUR CHOICES.
AND WHEN YOU RUN FOR REELECTION, THE CANDIDATES OPPOSING YOU GET TO MAKE THEIR CHOICES WHEN THEY FIND OUT.
AND HOW DO THEY FIND OUT? 'CAUSE YOU'RE, YOU GO AND PUT THE SILLY POST ON SOCIAL MEDIA.
SEE YOU WITH 'EM, SHOWING YOU AT THE BASKETBALL GAME.
WELL WHAT, WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT? THAT'S MY THEORY ABOUT IT ALL ANYWAY.
AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHAT YOU DO IN THE DARK DON'T COME TO LIFE.
AND WHEN IT COME TO THE LIFE, EVERYBODY THERE GOING BE JUDGED OF IT.
THE END OF THE DAY THEY'RE GONNA SEE, THEY'RE GONNA COME TO THE OPINION.
THE THE CITY OWNED FRANCHISES.
OH, I'M CUTTING, CUTTING IN ON SOMEBODY.
OH, IT'S CITY OWNED FRANCHISES.
WE USED, WE USED TO GET THE INVITATION ALL THE TIME TO GO TO THE GAMBLING CASINO.
A GAMBLING NIGHT, GO TO GAMES.
I DIDN'T GO AND TO, I DIDN'T GO THEN.
AND I DO NOT ACCEPT HIM TODAY BECAUSE, BECAUSE IT'S A HELL OF A CONFLICT OF INTEREST.
THE COMPANY I WORK AT THE OIL COMPANY IN LIEU OF TAX CONTRACT.
I DON'T VOTE ON, I RECUSE MYSELF.
YOU EACH HAVE TO HAVE YOUR OWN, YOUR OWN MORAL COMPASS.
I THINK THERE SHOULD BE SOME PERKS OF BEING IN OFFICE.
LORD KNOWS IT'S ENOUGH OF A GRIND.
BUT I THINK IT'S HARDER TO DO THAT.
AND PEOPLE ARE QUESTIONING IT MORE THAN EVER.
I HAVE, I HAVE ONE LAST QUESTION BEFORE.
I THINK OUR MAYOR PRO TIM HAD SOMETHING FIRST.
UM, WHAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR IS CLARITY ON WHAT IS CONSIDERED A GIFT AND WHAT IS NOT.
CAN YOU PLEASE OFFER SOME CLARITY ON WHAT IS CONSIDERED A GIFT AND WHAT IS NOT A GIFT YOU WON'T PAY FOR IT? IN IN, IN WHAT CONTEXT? I MEAN, I'M I'M TELLING YOU THAT GOING OUT TO LUNCH WITH SOMEBODY IS NOT AN ILLEGAL GIFT.
IF THE PERSON PAYING FOR IT IS SITTING THERE WITH YOU.
UH, IF YOU WANT TO GO TO A HOUSTON TEXANS GAME AND THE PERSON PAYING FOR IT IS SITTING THERE WITH YOU, DOESN'T MATTER HOW MANY HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS THE TICKETS ARE.
THAT'S NOT THAT, THAT'S AN ALLOWABLE GIFT.
THEN THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GOING TO THE BASKETBALL GAME AND GOING TO A LUNCH OR RECEIVING A SILVER, SILVER, SILVER, SILVER PUNCH BOWL, SILVER PUNCH BOWL.
THE FORMER MAYOR IS THAT THEY, FORMER MAYOR PRO TIM OF LUBBOCK, WHO IS THE FORMER TML PRESIDENT, WAS GIFTED A CADILLAC.
AND KNOWING HIM, 'CAUSE I USED TO DELIVER HIS COUNCIL PACKETS, HE'S STILL PARKING IT ON THE LAWN LIKE HE DID HIS OLD CAR, BUT HE GOT THE GIFT AFTER HE WAS OUT OF OFFICE.
HOW SOMEONE COULD HAVE GIFTED HIM A CADILLAC.
AND SO IT, THE ANSWER IS ALWAYS GOING TO DEPEND.
AND A, A KEY PART OF, OF YOUR SYSTEM WITH YOUR CODE OF ETHICS IS YOU HAVE THE ABILITY, YOU'VE GIVEN YOUR CITY ATTORNEY THE ABILITY TO GIVE YOU ADVISORY OPINIONS.
BUT AS A CITY ATTORNEY, IT'S NICE TO HAVE THAT
[04:25:01]
AUTHORITY.SO IF YOU WANT TO ASK, HEY, CAN I DO THIS THING? YOUR ATTORNEY'S ALLOWED TO GIVE YOU AN OPINION AND IF YOU RELY ON THAT OPINION, I WOULD THINK THAT WOULD PROTECT YOU FROM AN ETHICS COMPLAINT.
I WANTED TO, I THINK IT ALSO, BUT YOU KNOW, I'M LOOKING OUT FOR YOUR ETHICS CODE, LOOKING OUT FOR YOUR CHARTER, LOOKING OUT FOR YOUR CITIZENS, LOOKING OUT FOR THE TEXAS RANGERS, WHICH IS THE LAW ENFORCEMENT THAT INVESTIGATES PUBLIC CORRUPTION.
AND THAT'S WHAT THESE ARE ALL ABOUT.
UM, I WANNA, I WANNA WRAP THIS UP 'CAUSE WE'RE GOING OVER AND I STILL HAVE ONE MORE SEGMENT TO GET THROUGH, BUT I KNOW Y'ALL LIKE THESE THINGS.
WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO DO MR. DOUCETTE? I JUST HAVE ONE QUESTION, YOU KNOW, AND, UH, YOU BROUGHT UP A, THE THING WITH THE A DC AND I THINK YOU'VE DONE REAL WELL EXPLAINING IT.
AND YOU SAID ONE THING THAT WAS KIND OF LOW AND IT WENT FAST, BUT I KNOW IT'S BEEN A VERY, UH, CONTROVERSIAL, CONTROVERSIAL TYPE THING THAT WE NEED TO ACKNOWLEDGE.
FIRST OF ALL, YOU ACKNOWLEDGED IT WAS A NOT, IT IS A GOVERNMENTAL NONPROFIT ORGANIZATION.
AND, AND YOU WENT ON AND SAY THAT WE HAVE FINAL SAY IN ALL OF THE ALL CONTRACTS AND AGREEMENTS AND WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR OVERSEEING.
THEY RESPONSIBLE TO US AND WE HAVE SOLE CONTROL OVER, BUT YOU DID NOT MENTION OR FAILED TO MENTION, THEY'RE ALSO GOVERNED BY 5 0 4 AND WHATEVER.
5 0 4 HAS STATED WHAT WE SHOULD BE GOVERNED, WHAT WE SHOULD BE OVERSEEING BY IS IN REFERENCE TO 5 0 4.
'CAUSE 5 0 4 IS ACTUALLY THEIR, THEIR AUTHORITY FOR HAVING THAT CERTIFICATE OF NON-PROFIT ORGANIZATION FROM THE STATE OF TEXAS.
THE, THE CERTIFICATE FROM THE CITY OF PORT ARTHUR GOT FROM THE STATE OF TEXAS AND IS ALSO STATED IN 5 0 4, THAT THAT LOCAL GOVERNMENT CODE GOVERNS THE TEXAS ARMY.
SO I UNDERSTAND THE ROLE OF OUR CITY WITH OVERSEEING THE ANSWER TO US.
WE PROVIDE OVERSIGHT TO ENSURE THAT THEY FOLLOW 5 0 4.
MAYOR, WE, WE'VE GONE OVER 45 MINUTES FROM WHEN WE'RE SUPPOSED TO END.
VAL, WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO DO? DO YOU WANT ME TO DO THE LAST SEGMENT IN 15 MINUTES OR, OR DO YOU WANNA CALL IT QUITS? I, I'M, IT'S UP.
YOU SAID YOU HAVE, YOU STILL HAVE A FEW MORE OF THESE? YEAH.
GOT MORE ETHNIC SCENARIOS WE CAN DO OR WE CAN DO THE LAST SEGMENT, WHICH IS ON THE ROLL.
LET'S DO THE LAST SEGMENT AND GET,
[II.2. The Role Of The City Council And Best Practices For Serving On Governing Bodies;]
YEAH, LET'S DO THE LAST SEGMENT.FRANCISCO, WILL YOU PUT UP THE, THE ROLES? YEAH.
WE CAN KIND OF DIP THROUGH THAT.
THE BEST PRACTICES AND I'LL, I'LL BUZZ THROUGH THAT ONE BECAUSE I DON'T, I DON'T WANT TO G YOU, BUT THE ETHICS QUESTIONS ARE FUN.
LET'S DO THE ETHICS QUESTIONS WHILE HE'S PULLING THAT UP.
UM, CITY ATTORNEY, WILL YOU PLEASE SEND US ALL OF US A COPY OF OUR CODE OF ETHICS? YEAH.
REMEMBER WE SUPPOSED TO DO, OH, WE WERE SUPPOSED TO DO AN ADDENDUM AND UH, ALAN'S GONNA HELP US WITH THE ADDENDUM.
HE DOESN'T KNOW THAT, BUT HE'S GONNA HELP US.
WE HAVE A FEW LITTLE CLEANUP ISSUES ON IT AND WE'RE GONNA UH, TRY TO GET THAT PASSED AS SOON AS POSSIBLE TOO.
I'LL BREEZE THROUGH THIS QUICKLY.
IT'LL BE EASY BECAUSE THERE'S NOT A LOT OF LAW.
THERE'S A LOT OF OPINION AND YOU THINK I'VE ALREADY BEEN GIVING YOU OPINION, BUT HERE YOU GO.
UM, WHEN THINKING ABOUT YOUR MEETINGS AND YOU'RE SITTING AT THE DIOCESE AND YOU'RE ACTING AS A CITY COUNCIL MEMBER, I URGE YOU TO OCCASIONALLY THINK ABOUT WHO THE PLAYERS ARE AND THINK WITH A BROAD SCOPE.
BECAUSE I THINK WHEN YOU REMEMBER WHO ALL HAS A ROLE IN YOUR MEETINGS, THEN I THINK IT KIND OF HELPS ALL OF US REMEMBER OUR PLACES AND AND WHO WE ARE.
YOU THINK ABOUT THE FELLOW COUNCIL MEMBERS, YOU THINK ABOUT YOUR STAFF, YOU THINK ABOUT YOUR CITIZENS.
DIFFERENT COUNCIL MEMBERS HAVE DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS OF WHO THEIR CITIZENS ARE.
IS IT JUST THE RESIDENTS? WHAT ABOUT THE BUSINESS OWNERS? IS IT JUST THE VOTERS? WHAT ABOUT THE NON-VOTING TOURISTS WHO COME TO TOWN THAT YOU WANT? UH, EVERY CITY IS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT.
WHAT CITIZENS DO YOU THINK YOU'RE SERVING? YOU DEFINITELY HAVE THE APPLICANTS.
THEY'RE COMING IN FRONT OF YOU.
THEY'RE STANDING HERE 'CAUSE THEY WANT A PERMIT.
THEY WANT A SITE PLAN, A ZONING CHANGE.
THEY WANT A CONTRACT WITH YOU AND THEY NEED SOMETHING FROM YOU.
WE ALL ARE PROBABLY MEMBERS OF OUR OWN SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS OF ONE TYPE OR ANOTHER.
IS IT ENVIRONMENTALISTS, IS IT VETERANS? IS IT SENIOR CITIZENS? CONSTRUCTION GROUPS, CONTRACTORS, OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY.
THEY ALL HAVE THEIR OWN SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS THAT WE GET TO LISTEN TO.
WE'RE ALL ACCOUNTABLE TO SOMEBODY BEYOND THE VOTERS, THE REGULATORS.
T-C-E-Q-E-P-A-D-P-S, UH, THE ETHICS COMMISSION.
LOTS OF OVERSIGHT THAT WE'RE TRYING TO WALK THE STRAIGHT AND NARROW AND NOT GET CROSSWISE WITH THEM.
THE MEDIA WE'RE ALL USED TO THE TV, THE PRINT MEDIA, THE TRADITIONAL MEDIA.
BUT NOWADAYS WE HAVE TO GIVE RESPECT TO THE ALTERNATIVE MEDIA.
[04:30:01]
WITH A LAPTOP AND AN INTERNET CONNECTION IS A CITIZEN JOURNALIST NOW.AND WE TREAT THEM SIMILARLY THAN WE TREAT OTHER PEOPLE.
UH, WE DON'T PROVIDE ALL THE UTILITIES OURSELVES.
WE HAVE TO RELY ON OTHER GOVERNMENT ENTITIES OR OTHER PRIVATE CORPORATIONS.
AND THAT AFFECTS THE CHOICES THAT WE MAKE WITH OUR LAND, OUR LAND USE AND OUR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT.
SOMETIMES WE ARE IN AGREEMENT, SOMETIMES WE'RE AT ODDS.
THAT HAPPENS FROM TIME TO TIME.
AND OF COURSE MOST THINGS THAT YOUR CITY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE IS DOING IS DOING IT WITH THE COURTS IN MIND, HOPING TO STEER CLEAR OF THEM.
BUT OCCASIONALLY WE HAVE TO PLAY DEFENSE AND EVERY NOW AND THEN OFFENSE.
SO ALL THESE PLAYERS COME INTO PLAY AT CITY HALL WHEN WE'RE CONDUCTING BUSINESS.
THEY HAVE A ROLE TO PLAY THAT'S LEGITIMATE IN THIS PROCESS.
YOU AND I HAVE SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT ROLES.
WHAT IS YOUR ROLE IN THIS CONTEXT RIGHT HERE IN PORT ARTHUR? ARE YOU THE MAYOR? YOU'RE A COUNCIL MEMBER, YOU'RE A STAFF MEMBER.
YOU'RE THE MAYOR PRO TEM WHO TODAY ACTUALLY STARTED THE MEETING 'CAUSE THE MAYOR HAD ANOTHER OBLIGATION.
THAT'S WHY WE HAVE A MAYOR PRO TEM SO THAT THINGS MOVE FORWARD.
WELL JUST 'CAUSE YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR TITLE IS.
DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR ROLE IS? AND IS IT ALWAYS THE SAME? AND I WILL SUGGEST TO YOU THAT FROM TIME TO TIME IT CHANGES.
MEETING TO MEETING ISSUE TO ISSUE.
SOMETIMES YOU'RE A RESOURCE, SOMETIMES YOU'RE THE ONE ASKING THE QUESTION.
SOMETIMES YOU'RE A SUBJECT MATTER EXPERT, SOMETIMES YOU'RE NOT.
SO I THINK IT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT.
THERE ARE LOTS OF THINGS STAFF CAN DO, LOTS OF THINGS.
BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS CAN DO.
THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING THAT YOU DO.
YOU PASS THE LAWS THAT GOVERN YOUR COMMUNITY WHERE YOU, YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY LIVE.
AND THOSE LAWS MIGHT BE ON THE BOOKS FOR A GENERATION OR MORE.
AND SO I THINK THAT'S PARAMOUNT.
MAYBE YOU GOT ELECTED AS AN ADVOCATE.
I'VE HAD ADVOCATES FOR THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY, ADVOCATES FOR THE CONSTRUCTION COMMUNITY, ADVOCATES FOR THE VETERANS COMMUNITY.
UH, MAYBE THAT'S WHAT GOT YOU ON.
BUT HOPEFULLY YOU'VE GOT A BROADER GAZE THAN WHAT YOU WERE ADVOCATING FOR INITIALLY.
WHEN IT COMES TO COUNCIL, IF YOU KNOW YOUR ROLE, WHAT IS YOUR ACTUAL FUNCTION? WHAT ARE YOU DOING? DO YOU UNDERSTAND YOUR TASK? WELL, AGAIN, AS A GUY WHO'S BEEN TO A LOT OF COUNCIL MEETINGS OVER THE YEARS IN LARGE AND SMALL, I THINK YOU'RE ANTICIPATING WHAT THE OUTCOMES WILL BE.
YOU'VE GOT THE CRYSTAL BALL AS A GROUP.
YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE, UH, WHAT WE CALL YOU THE NEW TERM.
WHAT IS THE MASTERMIND? YOU'RE ALL TOGETHER FOR A SIMILAR PURPOSE, A SHARED MISSION.
YOU ALL CARE ABOUT YOUR COMMUNITY TOGETHER.
DID YOU CREATE SOMETHING BIGGER THAN YOURSELVES TO MAKE SOMETHING BIG CALLED THE PORT ARTHUR CITY COUNCIL THAT'S LOOKING INTO THIS FUTURE ON WHAT THIS COMMUNITY NEEDS IN SHORT TERM AND IN LONG TERM, ARE YOU PROBLEM SOLVING? YOU'RE GOAL SETTING.
YOU HEAR THEM AND YOU COME REPRESENT THEM BEFORE THIS CITY COUNCIL AND TRYING TO COME UP WITH THINGS THAT SERVE THE ENTIRE UH, COMMUNITY.
YOU'RE A LEGISLATIVE BODY JUST LIKE THE LEGISLATURE IN AUSTIN AND JUST LIKE CONGRESS IN DC.
BUT I WILL SUGGEST THE DECISIONS YOU MAKE AFFECT YOUR NEIGHBOR'S DAY-TO-DAY LIVES MORE THAN STATE OR FEDERAL LEGISLATORS DO.
AND SOMETIMES YOU'RE SORT OF LIKE AN APPELLATE COURT WHERE CERTAIN APPEALS ARE BROUGHT TO YOU WITH CITY STAFF.
I KNOW THERE WOULD BE SOME STAFF MEMBERS IN THE ROOM, SO I WANTED THEM TO BE INCLUDED.
WE ARE PRIMARILY INVOLVED IN THESE THINGS.
WE, BECAUSE WE DO THIS DAY TO DAY, EVERY DAY, OFTEN ISSUE SPOT THE THINGS THAT NEED TO BE ON YOUR AGENDA AND YOU NEED TO DEAL WITH AT SOME POINT IN TIME.
WE LISTEN TO THE COMMUNITY, WE LISTEN TO EXPERTS, WE GATHER UP DATA AND BRING IT TO YOU TO HELP YOU MAKE BETTER DECISIONS.
I KNOW THAT NOBODY WILL EVER ELECT ME TO ANYTHING.
I'M NOT ELECTED, BUT I AM A RESOURCE FOR THOSE WHO ARE CHOSEN BY THE VOTERS TO SERVE.
IT IS OUR JOB TO HELP YOU PREPARE SO THAT WHEN YOU GET TO A CITY COUNCIL MEETING, YOU CAN DO THE NUMBER ONE JOB YOU WERE ELECTED TO DO.
AND THAT IS MAKE DECISIONS AT THE DIOCESE.
AND ONCE YOU'VE MADE A DECISION, WE'VE GOT TWO CHOICES.
NOW I READ AN INTERESTING BOOK THE OTHER DAY.
UH, THE TEXAS TECH MPA PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION DEPARTMENT.
SHE SENT ME ABOUT GORILLA GOVERNMENT, GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES WHOSE JOB IT IS TO STAY AT THEIR DESK AND SECRETLY FIGHT AGAINST YOU EVERY CHANCE THEY GET
WHAT AN INTERESTING ETHICAL NOTION TO WRESTLE WITH.
I SERVE WHO THE VOTERS GIVE ME.
I SERVE YOU AND YOUR DECISION MAKING.
OR I GO FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO DO.
EXECUTING YOUR WILL AND IMPLEMENTING
[04:35:01]
IT ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS.IMPLEMENTATION EXECUTION IS BENEATH YOU.
UM, THIS IS THE NUMBER TWO THING GOT ME CHEWED OUT AT A TML CONFERENCE.
MAYOR PRO TEM, IT AFFECTS YOU TWO.
'CAUSE OCCASIONALLY YOU PICK UP THE GAVEL.
I THINK THE NUMBER ONE THING THAT A MAYOR, A PRESIDING OFFICER IS SUPPOSED TO FOCUS ON IS PROCESS, PROCESS, PROCESS, PROCESS.
IF YOU'RE FOCUSED ON THE OUTCOME AND YOU JUST CAN'T KEEP YOUR THOUGHTS TO YOURSELF, MAYBE YOU WANT TO HAND OVER THE GAVEL FOR ITEM NUMBER SEVEN,
UH, YOU CAN ABSOLUTELY DO THAT.
BUT THE BEST MAYORS THAT I'VE SEEN ARE THOSE THAT CARE ABOUT THE PROCESS.
THEY MAKE SURE ALL THE ISSUES ARE ADDRESSED.
EVERYONE ON THE COUNCIL WHO NEEDS TO SPEAK HAS BEEN HEARD FROM.
IF ANYONE IN THE AUDIENCE WANTS TO BE HEARD FROM, THEY'VE GOT A CHANCE TO TALK.
IF THERE'S A MOTION, DO WE UNDERSTAND THE MOTION? CAN YOU REPEAT THE MOTION? ALRIGHT, DO WE HAVE A SECOND? DO WE ALL UNDERSTAND WHAT WE JUST VOTED ON? ONE REASON YOU HAVE THINGS LIKE ROBERT'S RULES OF ORDER, WHICH IS NOT LAW, IS BECAUSE TOO MANY BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS WALK AWAY AND THE NEXT DAY THEY CAN'T QUITE TELL YOU WHAT THEY DID THE NIGHT BEFORE.
A GOOD PRESIDING OFFICER MAKE SURE EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS WHAT WE'RE DOING WHEN WE'RE DOING IT.
AND NOW THAT IT'S DONE, IS EVERYONE CLEAR ON WHAT WE JUST DID? OKAY, NEXT ITEM.
UH, A GOOD CHAIRPERSON MAKES SURE THAT YOU MOVE IN AN ORDERLY FASHION.
THE LAW DOES NOT REQUIRE YOU TO MOVE THROUGH YOUR AGENDA.
YOU CAN JUMP AROUND IF THE COUNCIL WILL LET YOU OR YOUR LOCAL RULES OR PROCEDURE WILL LET YOU.
BUT YOU'RE NOT SO HAPHAZARD THAT PEOPLE ARE JUST SHOUTING OUT AND NO ONE QUITE KNOWS WHAT ITEM WE ARE ON AND WHAT ACTION IS BEING TAKEN.
I THINK THAT, UH, A GOOD CHAIRPERSON MAKES SURE THAT THE RIGHT RESOURCES ARE THERE WHEN THE MEETING STARTS.
HOPEFULLY YOUR CITY STAFF HELPS YOU WITH THAT.
BUT IT'S VERY FRUSTRATING TO BE ASKED TO MAKE A DECISION.
YOU ASK ONE OR TWO QUESTIONS, YOU REALIZE THE PERSON WITH ALL THE ANSWERS IS NOT IN THE ROOM.
WELL, WHY, WHY IS THIS ON THE AGENDA? IF THAT PERSON'S NOT HERE, LET'S TABLE THIS AND COME BACK NEXT MEETING NEXT TIME Y'ALL CALL AND GET THAT PERSON HERE OR GET THAT DOCUMENT HERE IN ADVANCE.
AND I THINK THAT'S VERY HELPFUL AND THAT'S WHAT I'M HOPING THAT A, UH, THAT GOOD MAYOR DOES.
TRAITS OF SUCCESSFUL MEMBERS, Y'ALL DIDN'T THINK I WASN'T GONNA PICK ON Y'ALL.
Y'ALL'S LIST IS LONGER THAN THE MAYOR'S LIST.
AND IF YOU CAN'T SHOW UP, WALK AWAY THAT, THAT'S WHAT I'M SUGGESTING.
THIS IS NOT JUST A PLACE FOR AN HONORARY POSITION.
WE NEED A FULLY FUNCTIONAL COUNCIL.
IF YOUR HEALTH, YOUR FAMILY, YOUR JOB, TAKE YOU ELSEWHERE, THERE ARE PLENTY OF GOOD VOLUNTEER OPPORTUNITIES.
CITY COUNCIL MAY NOT BE THE RIGHT THING FOR YOU AT THIS TIME.
SO IF YOU'RE READING THE AGENDA PACKET, FIVE MINUTES FOR THE COUNCIL MEETING IS GAVELED INTO ORDER.
YOU'VE NOT PREPARED, YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND.
AND OH, BY THE WAY, I'M ASKING OTHER THINGS LIKE HOW CAN YOU ASK ME SMART QUESTIONS BEFORE THE MEETING? IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE AGENDA PACKET, HOW DO YOU KNOW IF YOU HAVE A CONFLICT OF INTEREST? IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE AGENDA PACKET, YOU, YOU'VE GOT TO BE PREPARED.
WHICH IN DOING THAT, SOMETIMES IT MEANS AGENDA PACKETS HAVE TO BE DONE EARLIER AND DISTRIBUTED EARLIER.
SOME OF MY CLIENTS ARE GOING THROUGH THAT ELSEWHERE.
BUT YOU'VE GOT TO BE PREPARED.
THERE'S NOBODY HERE THAT I CAN SEE THAT'S A WALLFLOWER.
SO I'M NOT AFRAID OF ANY OF YOU BEING QUIET DURING COUNCIL MEETINGS.
BEING RESPECTFUL IS A HARD ONE FOR ME SOMETIMES.
'CAUSE THERE'S TIMES WHERE THERE'S SOMEBODY AT THE DAAS AND THEY'RE BEING A JERK TO THE CITY SECRETARY.
AND THEN I AS CITY ATTORNEY FEEL THE NEED TO BEAT THEM UP.
'CAUSE I'M TRYING TO PROTECT THE CITY SECRETARY AND IT JUST MAKES ME LOOK LIKE A BULLY.
YES, HONOR, I, I'VE DECIDED I MUST TREAT EVERYONE WITH RESPECT.
NOT BECAUSE THEY DESERVE IT, BUT BECAUSE THE PUBLIC OFFICE I'VE BEEN GIVEN DEMANDS IT.
AND THAT'S HELPED GET ME THROUGH WHAT ARE SOME ROUGH CITY COUNCIL MEETING THESE DAYS.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT Y'ALL DO, YOU'RE INDIVIDUALLY ELECTED, BUT I'M URGING YOU IF YOU'RE GONNA BE SUCCESSFUL IN THIS JOB, TRY TO ACT RESPECTFULLY EVEN IF THE PERSON THAT'S COMING AT YOU IS IN ABSOLUTE TROLL.
AND I THINK THAT, LET, LET ME SAY THIS, I THINK THAT THAT'S ONE THING THAT I, I LEARNED OPERATING ON UM, BOARDS.
UM, AND I THINK THAT WOULD BE SO ADVANTAGEOUS FOR US AS A COUNCIL OF, OF OF, OF NOT ELONGATING OUR MEETINGS.
THERE'S A LOT OF INFORMATION THAT WE CAN GET, YOU KNOW, BEFOREHAND, UH, YOU KNOW, UM, SO THAT WE CAN ASK THOSE QUESTIONS AND GET THAT INFORMATION BEFORE WE GET TO THE DAUS.
AND THAT WAY WE WON'T HAVE TO PULL SO MANY ITEMS ON CONSENT AGENDA, BUT WE CAN HAVE THAT INFORMATION AND KNOW THAT WE'VE DONE OUR DUE DILIGENCE AS WELL.
I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH THAT AND
[04:40:01]
I THINK THAT'S JUST AN ONGOING CONVERSATION BETWEEN YOU, THE MAYOR AND YOUR CITY MANAGER.AND THAT'S WHY I SAY, YOU KNOW, STAFF, OUR JOB IS TO HELP YOU BE PREPARED AND UM, SO THAT WHEN THE MEETING IS ACTUALLY THERE, YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO, UH, TAKE CARE OF BUSINESS AND NOT KEEP DELAYING THINGS OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
SIMILAR PEOPLE SHOULD BE TREATED SIMILARLY.
SIMILAR SITUATIONS SHOULD BE TREATED SIMILARLY IF YOU'RE JUST PICKING AND CHOOSING YOUR FAVORITES 'CAUSE YOU LIKE THIS PERSON AND YOU HATE THAT PERSON.
I THINK THAT'S A ROUGH WAY TO GOVERN.
UH, STAFF OFTEN HATES IT WHEN I SAY THIS ONE.
DON'T ACT IF YOU'RE NOT READY.
UH, BUT SOMETIMES THINGS FEEL FORCED.
AND SO I WILL ASK STAFF, MUST WE VOTE ON THIS TONIGHT? YES.
IF WE DON'T, WE'RE GONNA MISS THAT ON THIS GRANT.
OKAY, WELL THEN YIPPY CA LET'S GO AHEAD AND VOTE.
BUT SOMETIMES WE'RE BEING PRESSURED TO ACT AND THAT PRESSURE IS FROM OUTSIDE THE ORGANIZATION.
AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND PEOPLE WORKING ON A DEVELOPMENT PROJECT FOR FIVE YEARS, BUT ALL OF A SUDDEN THEY NEED TO GET THEIR FUNDING TOMORROW.
IF YOU'RE NOT PREPARED, IT'S BETTER TO DELAY THAN TO VOTE ON SOMETHING AND IMMEDIATELY HAVE BUYER'S REMORSE.
AND I WOULD HOPE YOU CAN AVOID THAT.
DON'T DISCLOSE CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION OR DATA FROM EXECUTIVE SESSION.
UH, THAT'S NOT WHAT HEALTHY CITY COUNCILS DO.
DON'T HAVE DISCRIMINATORY MOTIVES.
AND UH, WE, WE ARE TO TREAT EVERYBODY FAIRLY.
ANTICIPATE CONFLICTS OF INTEREST AND ADDRESS THEM.
HOPEFULLY YOU'VE GOT A COPY OF YOUR OWN CHARTER AND IT'S HIGHLIGHTED, FLAGGED WITH POST-IT FLAGS AND DOGEARED 'CAUSE YOU KNOW IT, YOU LIVE IT AND YOU BREATHE IT.
UH, BE GOOD STEWARDS OF ADMINISTRATIVE RESOURCES.
YOU HAVE ONLY SO MANY EMPLOYEES AND ONLY SO MUCH MONEY IN THE BUDGET.
LET'S TRY NOT TO WASTE THOSE THINGS WHEN YOU DON'T NEED TO.
UH, THIS IS A HARD ONE, BUT IT'S A FOLLOW UP ON THE ETHICS.
PUT THE COMMUNITY'S INTEREST AHEAD OF YOUR OWN.
UH, YOU HOPEFULLY TOOK THE OATH OF OFFICE TO SERVE THE GREATER PORT ARTHUR COMMUNITY AND NOT JUST YOURSELVES, YOUR FRIENDS, YOUR FAMILY, AND TRY TO FOCUS ON THE BIG PICTURE.
I THINK MOST OF THE TIME IF YOU, THE CITY COUNCIL CAN PROVIDE THE BIG PICTURE, STAFF WILL FIND THE ROAD THERE.
LET THEM KNOW WHERE YOU'RE HEADED.
THEY MAY KNOW OF A WAY TO GET THERE THAT'S BETTER, FASTER, CHEAPER THAN WHAT YOU ENVISIONED.
MAYBE YOU'RE A NEGATIVE PERSON.
MAYBE YOU'RE RAN FOR CITY COUNCIL TO FIX SOMETHING THAT WAS BROKEN.
I THINK YOU'RE GOING TO ENJOY THIS MORE.
IF YOU'RE TRYING TO DO POSITIVE THINGS.
MOST OF THE TIME IT'LL AFFECT PEOPLE AROUND YOU.
MAYBE YOU ARE A ONE ISSUE CANDIDATE.
TRY TO EMBRACE ALL THE ITEMS THAT COME BEFORE THE CITY COUNCIL.
FIND A WAY TO BE INTERESTED IN THOSE AND TO SUPPORT YOUR COLLEAGUES.
YOU'RE GOING TO NEED THEIR VOTE SOMEDAY.
MAYBE YOU CAN OFFER A YOUR VOTE TO THEM TODAY 'CAUSE YOU KNOW THAT THEY NEED YOUR SUPPORT.
I HATE IT WHEN I'M AMBUSH WITH DATA AT A CITY COUNCIL MEETING.
IF YOU SPEND YOUR TIME IN BETWEEN MEETINGS, GATHERING FANTASTIC DATA, THAT'S WONDERFUL.
CAN YOU SEND IT TO THE MANAGER A COUPLE DAYS BEFORE THE MEETING SO THEY CAN DISTRIBUTE IT AND ANALYZE IT? OR YOU JUST GONNA WALK IN THE MEETING AND DROP IT.
BABOO, WE ALL HAVE TO GASP AND AND AMAZEMENT AT THE WONDERFUL DATA.
I KNOW KNOWLEDGE IS INFORMATION, BUT SHARING IT HELPS EVERYONE BE MORE PRODUCTIVE.
CONDUCT YOURSELVES WITH DECORUM.
THE VIDEOS ON YOUTUBE ARE OUT THERE IN TEXAS.
SCHOOL BOARDS, PEOPLE TAKING THEIR CLOTHES OFF AT THE PODIUM, THROWING THINGS, YELLING THINGS, SHOOTING THINGS, CURSING, ALL SORTS OF HORRIBLE NASTINESS NO INTO THE YOUTUBE ENTERTAINMENT OF WHAT'S HAPPENING IN PUBLIC MEETINGS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.
I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH WE CAN CONTROL FOR THAT.
WE CAN CONTROL OURSELVES AND HOW WE BEHAVE AND CONDUCT OURSELVES AT THE DIOCESE.
UH, AND THEN TRY TO BUILD CONSENSUS.
YOU'RE NOT ALWAYS GONNA BE ABLE TO GET A UNANIMOUS MAJORITY ON THE COUNCIL, BUT CAN YOU FIND A, A MIDDLE WAY THAT WILL HELP MOST OF THE PEOPLE BE OKAY WITH THE DECISION VERSUS VIOLENTLY OPPOSED TO IT? AND SO THAT IS IT FOR MY TIPS FOR MAYORS AND COUNCIL MEMBERS AND YOUR ROLE.
THAT'S ALL OF MY PREPARED MATERIALS.
WE'VE GONE AN HOUR OVER, WHICH IS FINE WITH ME, BUT I'M HAPPY TO TRY TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS YOU MIGHT HAVE LEFT BEFORE WE DEPART.
UM, I JUST WANTED TO THANK YOU FOR COMING.
YOU ARE ALWAYS A WEALTH OF INFORMATION AND IF WE HAVE ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS, YOU KNOW, WE'LL DEFINITELY UH, SEND THEM TO YOU ALSO.
AND YOU KNOW, WE'D LOVE TO HAVE YOU BACK.
BUT AGAIN, THANK YOU FOR SHARING ALL OF THIS INFORMATION WITH US.
AND WE, BUT WE CAN EVEN BE A BETTER COUNSEL FROM THIS SU SESSION ON THE DATE WITH THE GATHERING OF INFORMATION AND THE IMPLEMENTING OF THE INFORMATION THAT YOU'VE SHARED WITH US, UH, HOW WE'RE IMPLEMENTING THIS IN A POSITIVE, UH, MANNER WILL CAUSE US, I BELIEVE, TO BE A BETTER GROUP WORKING, UH, IN A TREMENDOUS FASHION FOR THE CITIZENS HERE IN THE CITY OF PORT ARTHUR.
SO WE APPRECIATE YOUR, YOUR, YOUR INDULGENCE TODAY.
[04:45:02]
GO AHEAD.WHAT'S THE SHORTEST CONSTANT MEETING? HAVE YOU EVER ATTENDED? WHEN I, IN OTHER STATES, MY SHORTES AND THERE WAS A CITY MANAGER RUN FORM OF GOVERNMENT, BUT THE LONGEST COUNCIL MEETING THAT WE HAD WAS ABOUT 15 MINUTES.
AND THAT'S BECAUSE WE HAD A WORKSHOP BEFORE, NO HEAD OF DEPARTMENT EVER ATTENDED.
YOU KNOW, THE CITY MANAGER ANSWERED ALL THE COUNCIL QUESTIONS DURING THE WORKSHOP AND WE JUST CAME AND, YOU KNOW, THE AGENDA WAS THAT'S FANTASTIC.
WHAT IS, WHAT IS THE SHORTEST, HAVE YOU EVER ATTENDED? NOT COUNTING A SPECIAL MEETING, A REGULAR MEETING AN HOUR, BUT THAT'S BECAUSE OF THE POMP AND CIRCUMSTANCE.
ALL THE PROCLAMATIONS, ALL THE RESOLUTIONS AND THE PLEDGES AND THE LITTLE KIDS GET TO COME LEAD THE PLEDGE.
UM, PLEASE, ALAN ALWAYS ENJOYED WORKING WITH YOU.
ALAN AND I WORKED TOGETHER ON REDISTRICT AND THE CITY OF ORANGE WITH THE CITY OF, WITH THE COMMUNITY, THE CITIZEN.
WE BROUGHT SENIOR MEMBER DISTRICT TO LOOK AT COMMUNITY AND IT'S WORKING FINE.
LOOKING FORWARD TO WORKING WITH YOU AGAIN.
I GIVE THE FLOOR BACK TO YOU, MAYOR.
UH, COUNCILMAN DOUCETTE WANTS TO DO HIS THING.
ALL IN FAVOR? SAY WHAT? ALL RIGHT.
ANYBODY WANNA SAY YOU MAY REMAIN.